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[Archive] Rejected Applications (2018-2023)

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PlanesOfOblivion

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Nation in Lazarus: PlanesOfOblivion

WA Nation: PlanesOfOblivion

NS Identities: PlanesOfOblivion

Have you been accused of any crime/s in other regions?: No

Have you participated in any other region/s?: No

Do you affirm this information is correct?: Yes

Oath of Membership: From this time forward, I voluntarily without mental reservation or purpose of evasion, pledge my loyalty to Lazarus and her people, whose community ideals I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.

What areas of the region are you most interested in?: Spam & Chatting i.e. you are here for informal fun

[/hr][/hr][/hr][/hr][/hr][/hr][/hr]
 
Do we have any indication how/when the applications will be reopening?
 
Maybe when we both give up.

Also, the smiley box doesn't work in Quick Reply. Just shows the images, clicking on them doesn't do anything.
 
Drop Your Pants;4767 said:
Maybe when we both give up.

Also, the smiley box doesn't work in Quick Reply. Just shows the images, clicking on them doesn't do anything.

The smiley box shouldn't be on quick reply, but when the plugin was re-installed it added it back.
 
Any updates on citizenship applications?
 
Drop Your Pants;5155 said:
Well Laz just declared on NPO so I think thats me out :(
It was going to be made illegal before the war began, to hold NPO and Lazarene citizenship at the same time. So it wasn't likely you'd have got citizenship.
(2) No person participating in a hostile entity may reside gameside or be admitted to citizenship in Lazarus until ending such participation. Participation will include residence, citizenship, or official membership in the hostile entity, or any higher form of participation.
 
Nation in Lazarus: [nation=Pyroskyvos]

WA Nation: [nation=Kostrorleauny]

NS Identities: Kostrorleauny, "Stro", "Kos", "Kostror", "Comrade Kos", "Comrade Stro", "Komrade Kos/Stro", etc.

Have you been accused of any crime/s in other regions?: No, I have not been accused of committing any crimes in other regions on NationStates.

Have you participated in any other region/s?: The Pacific - Leader of the World Assembly Squad, Aedile for Province Tannenberg (H-Q), Pacifican Citizen

The East Pacific - Member of the Executive Staff for the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs, Citizenship Pending

Do you affirm this information is correct?: Yes

Oath of Membership: From this time forward, I voluntarily without mental reservation or purpose of evasion, pledge my loyalty to Lazarus and her people, whose community ideals I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.

What areas of the region are you most interested in?: Culture & Role-playing i.e. World building and regional events,Spam & Chatting i.e. you are here for informal fun,Legislature i.e. discussing and proposing laws

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DYPveryI'm feeling inspired at the moment, so I'll speak my mind now instead of later. Again...delete it if you wish.

Some of you
- who don't really know me or consider me to just be a DOS Troll/NPO Subversive/Whatever the **** the NS Mods Think I am - will be happy to know that I won't be back around after this.

In theory, I oppose proscription: I find it hard to tell a player "joining our community requires you to abandon your friends*."

*the vast majority of whom, in Kostro's case, harbor no ill-will towards Lazarus, but may have engaged in piling the NLO by the request of yours truly

In practice, I proscribed The New Inquisition, Europeia, the Land of Kings and Emperors, and a whole ton of regions for pretty arbitrary and self-serving "security reasons" during my delegacy. Those regions are/were my enemies, but I wasn't as open-minded towards individuals as I could've been. There are a handful of good Lazarenes that I drove out of this region - never to return - because of the imagined "regional culture war" I perceived. In retrospect, I consider the proscription to be the result of my fears, and not my logic. A lot of us fell into this trap.

More reasonable actions would've been:
  • a) closing the Lazarene Liberation Army to suspicious individuals,
  • b) not promoting suspicious individuals to positions of trust (i.e. I never gave Pergamon any meaningful roles. And yes ... that it is an admission that the Judicial District wasn't exactly a great institution. :p )
Imki's coup* is, in my opinion, the biggest Lazarene culture shift since the PRL. Each and every day you are setting important precedents that will be a part of the "Lazarene Identity" until the next time someone like Imki shows up and shifts the culture. For a time, I shifted the culture here.

* Let's call it a coup, because that's what it was ... right? There is nothing inherently wrong with overthrowing a government. Contrary to what a lot of cybervegans (i.e. "n00bs") seem to think nowadays, a coup can be a good thing and is not something you should inherently oppose. Whether a coup is cool depends on context, motives, and what you do afterwards. Imki's coup is like the OFO coup, insofar as it was a "good" one. When I petitioned to become a Guardian, those were the kind of coups I was talking about.

These precedents and the role they play in "culture shifts" are extremely fucking important to your regional identity in the long run.

The term "precedent" should not be understood as having positive or negative connotations. Here are some examples of important precedents abroad:
  1. Balder: Under Solorni's delegacy, Balder became considerably more private and inaccessible to outsiders. I forget the names of the policies, but a couple years ago the NS GP Community had front row seats to watching Balder become the region it is today.
  2. The Pacific: The Pacific's decision to betray their historically healthy relationship with The South Pacific by slapping me on the wrist and even promoting me after the South Pacific Socialist Republic set the stage for a 6-year saga of incompetence, subversion, and terrible PR. Letting me off easy set a precedent for tolerating the intolerable (i.e. senseless GCR subversion, which is what the SPSR was). Look where it got them.
  3. Osiris: In 2013, after a period of prolonged instability, a group of individuals in Osiris set a precedent regarding the Empire by overthrowing the government and establishing the Osiris Fraternal Order. Cormac might disagree, but from an outsiders' perspective, I think the OFO was as much a cultural shift as it was a change in government. He would know better than I what exactly that shift entailed, but I think the results - and the importance of the precedent set when the Empire was booted - speak for themselves.
  4. The Rejected Realms: In a way that I'm too lazy to explain, the RRA is one of the oldest - and most significant - precedents on NS. If you're a hardcore GPer, think about it. If you're not, ignore this fourth bullet.
Proscription is a powerful precedent to set in a GCR, and I would encourage you guys to think carefully about if it's one you want to set. In particular, I think denying Drop Your Pants' citizenship application because of his Pacific residency is an extremely consequential precedent and cultural shift, and one that merits a legitimate conversation. Are you sure that's what you want Lazarus to be? I understand why you'd do it, and if I were in your shoes I'd probably do it too... but, when the dust settles, I think you'll look back on it and say "y'know, we really should've given our decent friend, former delegate, and long-time Lazarene the benefit of the doubt." Historically, citizenship isn't much of a big deal. Practically, and in terms of security, it still isn't much of a big deal.

>> Purple

I've used the color purple to emphasize relationships in precedent.

Right now, you are all figuring out Lazarus' future. You're facing questions including, but not limited to, the following:​
  1. How're you gonna stop the NPO from screwing you over again?
  2. How're you gonna take a stand against the NPO's conduct and demonstrate spine?
  3. Who is a Lazarene?
With regards to #3, I think Imki set a precedent by offering everyone something of a clean slate after her coup: If I understand her and the situation correctly, I think it was one of the best things she's done as delegate. Half of Laz's delegates, whether we like to admit it or not, have in some way either conspired to coup, couped, or thought about couping. I think Imki knows it's healthier for Lazarus to try to "be better" moving forward than it is to punish people for "being bad" in the past.

Having said that, what do we make of people who have always been good? People who don't need to punished for "being bad" in the past, because they never did anything wrong?

I may be less informed than you guys, but Drop Your Pants has never, to my knowledge, ever conspired to coup. He has never pushed a foreign agenda in Lazarus*. He has not given a legitimate shit in years. He doesn't even give a shit that you denied his application.

* Given his participation in the FRA for many years, this is noteworthy. To my knowledge, he never pushed a defender agenda in Lazarus. Certainly not during my delegacy. He completely abstained from commenting when I first floated the idea of Lazarus joining the FRA. He wasn't comfortable doing so.

Ultimately, I think you should reconsider DYP's citizenship application. He's earned it.

... I wanna argue for Kostro's place in Lazarus, too ... but if DYP didn't get citizenship, obviously he won't either.​
 
I'm feeling inspired at the moment, so I'll speak my mind now instead of later. Again...delete it if you wish.

Some of you
- who don't really know me or consider me to just be a DOS Troll/NPO Subversive/Whatever the **** the NS Mods Think I am - will be happy to know that I won't be back around after this.

***

Title of my post

In theory, I oppose proscription: I find it hard to tell a player "joining our community requires you to abandon your friends*."

*the vast majority of whom, in Kostro's case, harbor no ill-will towards Lazarus, but may have engaged in piling the NLO by the request of yours truly

In practice, I proscribed The New Inquisition, Europeia, the Land of Kings and Emperors, and a whole ton of regions for pretty arbitrary and self-serving "security reasons" during my delegacy. Those regions are/were my enemies, but I wasn't as open-minded towards individuals as I could've been. There are a handful of good Lazarenes that I drove out of this region - never to return - because of the imagined "regional culture war" I perceived. In retrospect, I consider the proscription to be the result of my fears, and not my logic. A lot of us fell into this trap.

More reasonable actions would've been:
  • a) closing the Lazarene Liberation Army to suspicious individuals,
  • b) not promoting suspicious individuals to positions of trust (i.e. I never gave Pergamon any meaningful roles. And yes ... that it is an admission that the Judicial District wasn't exactly a great institution. :p )
Imki's coup* is, in my opinion, the biggest Lazarene culture shift since the PRL. Each and every day you are setting important precedents that will be a part of the "Lazarene Identity" until the next time someone like Imki shows up and shifts the culture. For a time, I shifted the culture here.

* Let's call it a coup, because that's what it was ... right? Contrary to what a lot of cybervegans (i.e. "n00bs") seem to think nowadays, a coup can be a good thing and is not something you should inherently oppose. Whether a coup is cool depends on context, motives, and what you do afterwards. Imki's coup is like the OFO coup, insofar as it was a "good" one. When I petitioned to become a Guardian, those were the kind of coups I was talking about.

These precedents and the role they play in "culture shifts" are extremely fucking important to your regional identity in the long run.

The term "precedent" should not be understood as having positive or negative connotations. Here are some examples of important precedents abroad:
  1. Balder: Under Solorni's delegacy, Balder became considerably more private and inaccessible to outsiders. I forget the names of the policies, but a couple years ago the NS GP Community had front row seats to watching Balder become the region it is today.
  2. The Pacific: The Pacific's decision to betray their historically healthy relationship with The South Pacific by slapping me on the wrist and even promoting me after the South Pacific Socialist Republic set the stage for a 6-year saga of incompetence, subversion, and terrible PR. Letting me off easy set a precedent for tolerating the intolerable (i.e. senseless GCR subversion, which is what the SPSR was). Look where it got them.
  3. Osiris: In 2013, after a period of prolonged instability, a group of individuals in Osiris set a precedent regarding the Empire by overthrowing the government and establishing the Osiris Fraternal Order. Cormac might disagree, but from an outsiders' perspective, I think the OFO was as much a cultural shift as it was a change in government. He would know better than I what exactly that shift entailed, but I think the results - and the importance of the precedent set when the Empire was booted - speak for themselves.
  4. The Rejected Realms: In a way that I'm too lazy to explain, the RRA is one of the oldest - and most significant - precedents on NS. If you're a hardcore GPer, think about it. If you're not, ignore this fourth bullet.
denying Drop Your Pants' citizenship application because of his Pacific residency is an extremely consequential precedent and cultural shift, and one that merits a legitimate conversation. Are you sure that's what you want Lazarus to be? I understand why you'd do it, and if I were in your shoes I'd probably do it too... but, when the dust settles, I think you'll look back on it and say "y'know, we really should've given our decent friend, former delegate, and long-time Lazarene the benefit of the doubt." Historically, citizenship isn't much of a big deal. Practically, and in terms of security, it still isn't much of a big deal.>> Purple

I've used the color purple to emphasize relationships in precedent.

Right now, you are all figuring out Lazarus' future. You're facing questions including, but not limited to, the following:[/align]
  1. How're you gonna stop the NPO from screwing you over again?
  2. How're you gonna take a stand against the NPO's conduct and demonstrate spine?
  3. Who is a Lazarene?
With regards to #3, I think Imki set a precedent by offering everyone something of a clean slate after her coup: If I understand her and the situation correctly, I think it was one of the best things she's done as delegate. Half of Laz's delegates, whether we like to admit it or not, have in some way either conspired to coup, couped, or thought about couping. I think Imki knows it's healthier for Lazarus to try to "be better" moving forward than it is to punish people for "being bad" in the past.

Having said that, what do we make of people who have always been good? People who don't need to punished for "being bad" in the past, because they never did anything wrong?

I may be less informed than you guys, but Drop Your Pants has never, to my knowledge, ever conspired to coup. He has never pushed a foreign agenda in Lazarus*. He has not given a legitimate shit in years. He doesn't even give a shit that you denied his application.

* Given his participation in the FRA for many years, this is noteworthy. To my knowledge, he never pushed a defender agenda in Lazarus. Certainly not during my delegacy. He completely abstained from commenting when I first floated the idea of Lazarus joining the FRA. He wasn't comfortable doing so.

Ultimately, I think you should reconsider DYP's citizenship application. He's earned it.

... I wanna argue for Kostro's place in Lazarus, too ... but if DYP didn't get citizenship, obviously he won't either.​
 
I'd have to disagree on several points there. Citizenship is a big a deal, as it allows outsiders to vote on our laws and the future our Lazarus, and all you need is one vote to make a great deal of difference and to influence others. This a concept that even the New Pacific Order accepts, unless you are earnestly suggesting that the New Pacific Order give citizenship to every nation that walks through the door, regardless of their hostility towards the New Pacific Order. Though the New Pacific Order has a policy in place to prevent 'dangerous elements' taking positions of power, whereas Lazarus doesn't. If enough votes are gathered, Imki can be forced from power, and a new Delegate put in place. 

All it took was Feux and a few others to push for the People's Republic of Lazarus, and carry out a major purge of Lazarenes, and all it took to bring that regime down was Kazmr and his friends, and a lot of effort. Just one election was all it took to effectively remove NES and ban all 'LKE sympathizers' and 'raiders' from Lazarus, over an extended period of time, though no one at the time knew that's what they were voting for, beyond those party to the conspiracy. Just a small number of players can have a major influence on a region, for the better or worse, and this was how Lazarus was infiltrated during the Humane Republic of Lazarus and Celestial Union, and in the governments before them. The cost of heavy openness is weak security and enabling of coups, and repeatedly Lazarus was taken advantage of in this manner. Does this mean we want a 'Fortress Lazarus' mentality forever? I doubt it. However, for the time being it is pretty necessary, and will be till Lazarus has an active community, and robust institutions. We don't really have either of those, as the civil society (if you can call it that) was destroyed during the civil war, and hasn't been restored to Lazarus yet. Lazarus right now can be very easily manipulated and influenced. 

Though I'd be against, as many are since the civil war, any kind of elected delegacy transition, beyond that of a challenge system and line of succession. I have no problem with Tubbius being our next Delegate, if Imki decides to step down some day for example. I don't even have an issue if we decided some day to make the Delegacy purely a security position with ceremonial powers, and a Prime Minister like figure and the elected assembly holding the political power. But from now on, loyal Lazarenes without [primary] allegiance to any foreign region, are the ones that hold the delegacy, and I don't see a problem with that, and as I have said several times on discord, if we lose the delegacy, we lose everything. Governments and communities can be rebuilt, but once the region is lost, we have to hope for the likes of Kazmr and Imki, to save us from the mess and bring back Lazarus. I don't want to go through that again, nor does Lazarus. We've had enough civil wars and coups for a lifetime. 

This was a cost which the region decided it wasn't currently prepared to pay. You may disagree with that decision, as many already have, but the days where Lazarus would simply let players stroll in regardless of their affiliations and rise through the ranks to major political power is gone. Under the current government and constitution, the reigns are held tightly by those that the region can truly trust. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your NPO stance), this means that citizens of the New Pacific Order, are players that the region doesn't want to have any power - whether as voting citizens or in positions of power or authority.

The problem with exceptions, is that they themselves set a precedent, which is what was pointed out on the discussion of a proscription. I put forward an expiring exception, with the implication for yourself and a few others, including for Drop Your Pants to be allowed in, only while the exception remained in effect. But as was pointed out in that discussion, the problem with such an exception is that once you draw that line on accepting some people, the demand will be to allow more, on basis of fairness. If we accept one application, based on 'lack of threat', we legitimately have to accept them all, if we want to remain consistent, and not undermine the fairness of the application process. That means within a few weeks, we could have three, then six, then twelve applications from dual citizens from the New Pacific Order, and so on. New Pacific Order citizens deciding our laws and participating in our political process during war time, and when players in Lazarus genuinely feel betrayed by The New Pacific Order, is not what anyone is looking for, from a fair assessment of public opinion. But there should be a vote on this, as the proscription is not in effect yet in regards to the New Pacific Order, and instead we are taking the declaration of war into account in regards to citizenship. 

Drop Your Pants hasn't 'earned' anything, in terms of the current government of Lazarus, which is the curse and responsibility of the current government to accept. When Lazarus passed legislation that made clear that this government was not a continuation of past Lazarene governments, it created a new footing and a new process for Lazarus to decide who deserved to achieve political power and who didn't. If you note, Imki didn't have to allow any of us in her government. She was well within her defacto rights as delegate to ignore everyone who participated in the convention, and to create a new Lazarus entirely in her own image. She didn't do that, and decided to give some of us who participated in the Convention, a say in the future of Lazarus, but that wasn't required of her nor is she required to accept anyone based on their past history in Lazarus. 

That said, Drop Your Pants didn't really participate in the Convention, nor do anything of note in Lazarus during this administration, prior to his application, so the new government doesn't 'owe' Drop Your Pants anything - especially given that what Drop Your Pants did was in the Celestial Union and Humane Republic, and before, which this Lazarus is not a successor state from. That may sound harsh, and it is, though the reality is that the moment Lazarus said it wasn't a successor state, all past Lazarenes ceased to be 'owed' anything. The war however makes it difficult to allow dual citizens at this time. There may be a re-consideration, there might not be. In fact, no nation residing in Lazarus was granted citizenship for a long while now, since the initial war declaration on the New Pacific Order was passed.

Since no one has done it yet, I will put the New Pacific Order proscription up for discussion, as Lazarus as now has no policy beyond, 'this citizenship application has New Pacific Order in it' and 'we are at war with the New Pacific Order', therefore we can't process this right now.
 
Y'know what? I'm out of touch, and concede my entire argument. You made a bunch of great points.
 
Nation in Lazarus: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=glorious_society
WA Nation: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=glorious_society
NS Identities: Glorious Society
Nathanian
New Northridge
Have you been accused of any crime/s in other regions?: Nope
Have you participated in any other region/s?: Yes. Founder of my personal region and one of the last few of the United Islands
Do you affirm this information is correct?: Yes
Oath of Membership: From this time forward, I voluntarily without mental reservation or purpose of evasion, pledge my loyalty to Lazarus and her people, whose community ideals I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.
What areas of the region are you most interested in?: Spam & Chatting i.e. you are here for informal fun,Legislature i.e. discussing and proposing laws,Foreign Affairs i.e. being an ambassador to another region
 
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