[Discussion] Delegate Recall

[Imaginary]

I'm really glad you felt comfortable bringing this subject to your fellow shareholders Pharcyde. As the person who proposed the recall of Imki a few days before she fortunately came back online and resigned herself, I know that it can feel very difficult to do what you think you should in this type of situation. "Will people ever take me seriously again?" or "Will the delegate think I have something against them?" are questions that I'm sure you must have asked yourself.

But this is a democratic monarchy-ish region, and if you sincerely believe that Treadwellia is not the best option as delegate I have great respect for you for saying so and acting to make a change. I have seen you raising the concerns you have made in this thread in the Board Meeting Room before and don't intend to treat this discussion in my response as some kind of shot from blue cheese, because it's evidently something you've been considering for some time.

Those who concern themselves with what's good for the region rather than to simply show support for those in power at the moment are the most valuable kind of player. If you are that type of player, thank you very much for participating in this region and don't take to heart anyone saying you're ridiculous! <3

...If you're just trying to stir up trouble then -.-

--

Regardless. =P I don't hold the same opinion. As Canton touched on above, Treadwellia's style of leadership lets those who would like to do something in the region have a stable base to push off from. For example, joW is able to use his position in government to form the military force that protects us currently, in which players can learn to point, trigger, and become educated about different facets of r/d. I've been able to launch the Laz OS program which has boosted the RMB from being less active than that of Osiris to over 4 times as active and 8 times that of Balder (on average over the last 30 days). Ryccia has organized an innovative new ambassador system and is currently in the process of writing our next report (in a much more timely manner than I ever did I might add lol.. love you ry ;-;).

So I don't think this is a failing region, and I don't think removing Treadwellia and replacing him with NR, who has said he doesn't want to be delegate, would make Lazarus a more awesome region.

What would you like to see happening here that isn't happening? If it's a neat idea that we agree will help the region, then let's do it! --although I'm on a hiking vacation in Switzerland right now so it'll have to wait a month for my help. >.< But others might be interested as well. :)

[New Rogernomics]

[...]A recall is not a punishment, by the way. I don’t think Tubb is going to find solutions to our problems and would like to see someone else take their shot.

A recall in the case of a political position is impeachment, when it concerns negligence or poor conduct as an executive, which is by all means a punishment.

Edit: New Rogernomics, I don’t think there is anything wrong with telegram campaigning. It is a legitimate part of the democratic process.

The line is generally very narrow between legitimate campaigning and voter coercion, especially when it comes to a less open format and more of a private DM or telegram. To give more RL context, it is the equivalent of door knocking at the extreme or sending a campaign email to a voter.

If you were to knock on most of the doors and say Delegate X was terrible, and get them all to vote against Delegate X, that would be one thing. It is another to thing to recently join as a new citizen, and campaign against Delegate X, when you are still a citizen of other regions. It makes other players who have been in the region a while uneasy, hence my earlier comment on why this would be taken badly - whether the campaign succeeds or fails.

So I don't think this is a failing region, and I don't think removing Treadwellia and replacing him with NR, who has said he doesn't want to be delegate, would make Lazarus a more awesome region.

I would be fine with being Delegate, though that doesn't mean I strive to replace whoever the current Delegate might be. You could argue that it being a difficult security situation makes the region lose sight of whether the Delegate is good or not, but you could also argue the reverse that a difficult security situation requires we support the current Delegate - until we have a stable situation at least after Imki has left.

Though, I generally think the Delegacy as a Security Position and head of state might be better for Lazarus, than pushing that it has to be heavily executive - as it is entirely possible to have the best of both when it comes to Lazarus. Plenty of Democracy, but also a stable Delegacy that is far more impervious to future coups.

[The Pharcyde]

Thanks for writing all that Imaginary. We can talk later on Discord.

I won’t keep arguing about the recall proposal because everyone but me is against it. However, I stand by my opinion. Three months has been long enough for me to formulate my viewpoint. It goes without saying though that I’d be happy to see my opinion change.

[...]A recall is not a punishment, by the way. I don’t think Tubb is going to find solutions to our problems and would like to see someone else take their shot.

A recall in the case of a political position is impeachment, when it concerns negligence or poor conduct as an executive, which is by all means a punishment.

Although that’s true in real life, I think it’s a terrible way of viewing a recall on NationStates.

[New Rogernomics]

Although that’s true in real life, I think it’s a terrible way of viewing a recall on NationStates.

Not so at all. If you remove someone from their political position for negligence or poor conduct, effectively you are removing them from political office, and effectively making clear to them that they aren't valued in or don't deserve that position.

That can't be considered anything else but a punishment, even if it is done by the best of intentions.

It is not at all like removing someone near the end of every 5-6 months or more, because as it stands Treadwellia has only allegedly been unsuitable in opinion, which is by no means a severe offense. 

If Treadwellia had done something grossly wrong, then I could see reason for a recall.

Historically though in the Humane Republic of Lazarus and the Celestial Union of Lazarus, both heavily democratic regions, recalls weren't used for inactivity unless they truly were inactive and 'unsuitable' i.e. CTE'ing and not participating at all.

So I don't think we should set a precedent of recalling just because we don't like how someone might perform, and instead use recalls for severe offenses.

[Ryccia]

A leader cannot exist without their people's effort, and the people cannot be organized without a good leader. A good leader acknowledges that he alone is not the ultimate provider of reason, and thus may seek others to hear and speak to.

Building our region and making it active is everyone's responsibility, not just his. We cannot shoulder the weight on one person alone. We are currently attempting to find solutions as a team, together. His leadership is competent, for we are all included in the push to create a better Lazarus. He listens to all of us, not just his mind.

I have seen his leadership behind closed doors, and, as Treadwellia has more or less stated, even we may not entirely know what he must do daily. It can be crucial, but unnoticed. Whenever an issue arises, all of us in the government discuss it. He hears our points of view, and ultimately decides on a course of action. That is an example of good leadership: to not rush into things, to be patient in decision, to be mature and consider all the perspectives that one may encounter. Where he sees conflict and discord, he attempts to keep the peace. He is a good role model for the rest of the region to follow.

Communities are always a communal effort, hence the name. We must all collaborate, and you cannot get rid of this inactivity just by discarding one person. Even if you recall a million Delegates in rapid succession, you shall still not get rid of what plagues our region. This move, as a result, can only be a punishment, and it is my opinion that Tubbius deserves not such a sanction. He has done nothing to merit a sacking.

I shall like to state that I do commend you for being brave enough to bring your opinion forth, even if it is unpopular. I respect that. And more the reason to praise Tubbius for his positive, open and caring attitude for the region. My opinion is that I do not support this recall. Perhaps I have not been here as long as others here, but I believe I have been here long enough to notice that Tubbius is a good Delegate.

[Wymondham]

I am firmly against such a recall for broadly the same reasons given by many others in this thread

[The Pharcyde]

Although that’s true in real life, I think it’s a terrible way of viewing a recall on NationStates.

Not so at all. If you remove someone from their political position for negligence or poor conduct, effectively you are removing them from political office, and effectively making clear to them that they aren't valued in or don't deserve that position.

That can't be considered anything else but a punishment, even if it is done by the best of intentions.

A punishment is “the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.” I do not think Tubbius has committed a offense. He hasn’t been negligent or conducted himself poorly, and I didn’t imply such. On the contrary, I think he is diligent and upstanding.

[The Pharcyde]

I withdraw this proposal.

[treadwellia]

I appreciate your willingness to be so open and direct about the concerns as you saw them, standing up with your citizen's right to engage with the political process of Lazarus. Like I said here, I don't 100% agree with the assertions raised here, but I certainly agree with your willingness to stand up for your beliefs in the situation. Being willing and able to engage in honest communication is what makes Lazarus operate as it does, so thank you. Thank you for being willing to engage with others in Lazarus in a largely peaceful and diplomatic fashion, and I wish you well in future endeavors.