Discussion [Discussion] Elected Ministries

[New Rogernomics]

This is the discussion for amending the mandate to allow for regional elections for internal affairs (internal management) and foreign affairs (public relations), with the military remaining as is. This is a collection of the proposals, which once agreed to, would have to be put to vote, with the mandate amendments first.

For the general discussion, for just amending the mandate to define ministries, go here:

Discussion - Ministries of Lazarus Act & Mandate Amendment Discussion

Original proposal/discussion is here: https://nslazarus.com/forum/index.php?threads/2291/ I have just included a starting point here, for us to add to/edit: Ministries of Lazarus Act (2021) Proposed by: @New Rogernomics Section 1. Existing Ministries of Lazarus (1) The Prime Minister shall...

nslazarus.com

To define the ministries in law:

Ministries of Lazarus Act (2022)

Proposed by: @New Rogernomics​

Section 1. Existing Ministries of Lazarus

(1) The Prime Minister shall be responsible for overseeing Ministries that shall organize:

a. The foreign relations, cultural exchanges, and world assembly affairs of the region,
b. The internal affairs of the region, inclusive of cultural events, media, and welcoming residents or citizens,
c. The Regional Guard, as the military institution of Lazarus.

Supplementary Ministries

(2) The Granting Official will be appointed by the Prime Minister, as a Minister to serve within the ministry described in Section 1, subsection b.

Section 2. Ministries Subject to Regional Election

(1) The ministries defined in Section 1, subsection a and b, shall be subject to regional elections,

(2) This shall exclude the Granting Official, the Regional Guard, or any ministries added by the Prime Minister, as allowed by regional law.

Section 3. Additional Responsibilities

(1) Additional responsibilities may be applied to these ministries through an act or measure of the assembly, or through a directive of the Prime Minister.

(2) Other ministries may be added or removed by the Prime Minister, as allowed by regional law.

To amend the mandate:

Elected Ministries Amendment (2022)

Proposed by: @New Rogernomics
​

Section 1. Section 4 of the Mandate, Establishment of the Cabinet, currently reads:

IV. Cabinet of Lazarus

Establishment of the Cabinet

(4) The Prime Minister will set the course of the Cabinet with such ministries, programs, and activities as they determine are beneficial for Lazarus.

(5) The Prime Minister may issue executive directives to set public policy for executive ministries, programs, and activities. Such directives will remain in effect unless rescinded by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister. Such directives may also be amended by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister.

(6) The Prime Minister may appoint Cabinet Ministers to assist with executive ministries, programs and activities, and must fill any ministries mandated by law. Appointment of Cabinet Ministers will be subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Assembly.

(7) Cabinet Ministers will serve until the end of the Prime Minister's term or until resignation, removal from office by the Assembly or the Prime Minister, or automatic removal from office.

(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.

Section 1. Section 4 of the Mandate, Establishment of the Cabinet shall be amended to include:

IV. Cabinet of Lazarus

Establishment of the Cabinet

(6) The Prime Minister may appoint Cabinet Ministers to assist with executive ministries not subject to a regional election, and programs and activities. Appointment of Cabinet Ministers will be subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Assembly.

(7) Cabinet Ministers will serve until the next Prime Minister's term, if not subject to a regional election, or until resignation, removal from office by the Assembly or the Prime Minister, or automatic removal from office.

(8) Cabinet Ministers subject to regional election shall be elected by majority instant-runoff vote for a four-month term. Elections shall be undertaken by the Assembly. Procedure for elections will be defined in law.

(9) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.

 

[New Rogernomics]

We could also make the cabinet ministers just have a three-month term, if we want the elections a bit more regular.

 

[Frankender]

IMO this only takes power away from the PM

 

[New Rogernomics]

IMO this only takes power away from the PM

Not really, the PM can still fire the Ministers for not doing their job and direct them like now.

Only difference is that two key Ministries have regular elections., and the PM can still promote deputies to serve in any department, and determine how those departments operate:

(9) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.

 

[Frankender]

It is taking power away from the PM as he/she is no longer appointing the 3 key ministries

 

[New Rogernomics]

It is taking power away from the PM as he/she is no longer appointing the 3 key ministries

Read above, just IA and FA. Making some Ministries more accountable, and encouraging Ministers in those two key Ministries to show initiative, do more of the work, is going to be more valuable than the limitation of the PM not appointing those Ministers.

Ministers would be less likely to not do work, if it means failing to follow through with election promises, and being a disappointment to voters and the region as a result. Unlike now they'd have to demonstrate to the region and the PM why they deserve to be a Minister, let alone be in the PM's cabinet.

No more of just pointing fingers at PMs for being lazy because of being unable to find good Ministers, might be a positive outcome too, as Ministers would be elected expecting some of the initiative they'd campaigned on.

The PM can also still fire them for poor performance, can still appoint Deputy Ministers, and can still order around their Cabinet.

If the region does not want that, then we can expect another year of Ministers disappointing their PMs, and vice versa. Then there is a lack of interest in the positions by basis of no competition, as they can just put their name in the hat, be appointed, with no one knowing (including the PM) what they might bring to the table.

Elections also make a position more valuable too, and give the citizens a taste of being in elected office, so we might see a lot more PM candidates each election, as having experienced Cabinet, they'll likely want to do more for the region.

If the region does not have the numbers or desire for this, it can be dropped but the same problems with appointed Ministers, I've stated here, will likely pop up again.

If we do go ahead with this and it doesn't work, we just amend it back, without much of an issue. Still better than not trying out new ideas often to tweak the regional government for better performance.

 

[Frankender]

You’re missing my entire point, but alright


And I don’t see how elections make the positions more valuable


But I’d support this if we thought this would make our region more active. I don’t see how it would

 

[New Rogernomics]

You’re missing my entire point, but alright


And I don’t see how elections make the positions more valuable


But I’d support this if we thought this would make our region more active. I don’t see how it would

It would, as all the criticisms of past regimes like the HRL or CU aside, ineffective and inactive Ministries was never the problem it has been for us keeping them un-elected and uncompetitive.

I can only state from personal experience, that if I hadn't experienced running for a Minister election, I'd never have considered running for a higher office, and not have had the interest to help out the region.

Having an opportunity to think through ideas, present them to the region, and get elected to follow through with them, was a really fun and enjoyable experience, which I'd hope others get to experience too. PM is too high a bar to reach for most, and this will make it feel just a bit closer, and more in the realm of possibilities.

 

[Chanku]

I oppose any and all changes that have elections for Ministers, full stop. We should not revive things, just because prior regimes did it as this is not then. Further, I would like to remind everyone that during the HRL/CU inactivity was still rampant and it wasn't infrequent that a PM (or the equivelent in that system) didn't even serve their full term.

 

[Leonism]

I think it is worth a try to see if elected ministers lead to more activity. I also agree with shorter terms for them, three months seems good.

I agree with @Frankender though that this will make the position of PM less powerful and attractive. One privilege of being PM has always been assembling a team of people you want to work with.

Obviously even elected ministers could still be nominated by the PM as candidates, not just by themselves or other citizens. If the PM puts forth good candidatesand manages to convince the assembly of their worth, the elections would in practice remain confirmations just as they are now.

 

[New Rogernomics]

I oppose any and all changes that have elections for Ministers, full stop. We should not revive things, just because prior regimes did it as this is not then.

Lazarus is not the only region in the history of NS to elect Ministers, and you can find plenty of UCRs and GCRs that do quite successfully.

In fact, TSP just had such an election which you can read about here: https://nationstates.news/defenderism-dominates-tsp-cabinet-elections/3562/

And The Communist Block, as a UCR, runs their system that way too: https://nationstates.news/tcb-martyn-first-minister-executive-elections/3619/

Further, I would like to remind everyone that during the HRL/CU inactivity was still rampant and it wasn't infrequent that a PM (or the equivelent in that system) didn't even serve their full term.

That is describing Delegates (or the highest executive office), not Ministers.

Lazarus also never had a PM (unless you count the Celestial Being), so that can't be used comparatively, as the Delegate under the HRL/CU did more than what our PM does.

Ministers usually served their full terms, and it was the Delegacy that didn't.

So, this is arguing against the one aspect of the HRL/CU that worked, and a practice working without issue in other regions, if you are going to argue against elected Ministers on the basis of inactivity.

 

[thechurchofsatan]

Having to convince the citizens that you have something good lined up for your term, by outlining your plans in your campaign gives a good idea of what your term might look like, allows you to get outside input about your plans so you can improve on them before implementing them, and lets the citizens know what's planned so they might sign up in order to help out with something they're interested in. It's worth considering.

 

[New Rogernomics]

I agree with @Frankender though that this will make the position of PM less powerful and attractive.

It would actually make the position more attractive, as citizens would have had an opportunity to understand how elections work in Lazarus and build an understanding of who supports their ideas.

Whereas with now, you only have an opportunity to get ahead if you are nominated by the PM, and if the PM doesn't like you, then that can be a career ender.

The only way you can get the experience to be PM then would be to leave Lazarus, and if they have to leave Lazarus, I doubt they are going to come back.

With Minister elections though, you are developing a civil society of former Ministers (or for those regions that have an Upper House, representatives), who know how to be elected, and are prepared to run for PM.

Running for PM isn't easy, so experience in lower-level elections is pretty important for personal growth.

 

[Clorinda]

For once I agree with Chanku and Frankender.

 

[New Rogernomics]

For once I agree with Chanku and Frankender.

About what, not wanting elected Ministers, or about it making the PM less powerful or attractive as a position?

Right now, the only elected position in the entire region is the PM, which really limits career growth, and I'd say is a large driver of our inactivity.

I proposed an upper house, as an elected legislature, but that was rejected.

So, we really have nothing to keep a pool of citizens, who understand and enjoy running in elections on a regular basis, as not everyone wants to be PM.

A lot of folks are willing to run lower-level elections, as it is way less scary at first than aiming right for the top, and we aren't going to retain those people, as they'll go with the region that gives them the opportunity - which right now isn't us.

 

[thechurchofsatan]

Part of the reason Lazarus in its current funk is because there are so few opportunities for growth. With the exception of Balder, all the other GCRs have ample opportunities for growth via more democracy. Appointed executives breed stagnancy, rob the region of future leaders, and rob the region of potential activity from its citizens. Lazarus needs elected Ministers.

 

[Clorinda]

About what, not wanting elected Ministers, or about it making the PM less powerful or attractive as a position?

Right now, the only elected position in the entire region is the PM, which really limits career growth, and I'd say is a large driver of our inactivity.

I proposed an upper house, as an elected legislature, but that was rejected.

So, we really have nothing to keep a pool of citizens, who understand and enjoy running in elections on a regular basis, as not everyone wants to be PM.

A lot of folks are willing to run lower-level elections, as it is way less scary at first than aiming right for the top, and we aren't going to retain those people, as they'll go with the region that gives them the opportunity - which right now isn't us.

Not wanting elected ministers. However, I would support an upper house like TEP’s Magisterium.

 

[New Rogernomics]

Part of the reason Lazarus in its current funk is because there are so few opportunities for growth. With the exception of Balder, all the other GCRs have ample opportunities for growth via more democracy. Appointed executives breed stagnancy, rob the region of future leaders, and rob the region of potential activity from its citizens. Lazarus needs elected Ministers.

I think Balder is our future, if we stick with the status quo of inactivity, and refuse to shake up how we do things and try things out.

I'm prepared to do RP stuff, and work on that front, though as far as Ministerial duties are concerned, we are going to keep having issues of Ministers and PMs not getting along, and issues of Ministers with limited initiative of their own.

The PM has no real basis to know whether someone is good or not, unless they've been nominated before (or run in another region) and there is a work record, and it is not the same as someone having to show their skills and what they can do, through an election campaign.

Whoever is PM next will get criticism for their Ministers activity or lack of it, a lot of it won't be justified.

 

[New Rogernomics]

Not wanting elected ministers. However, I would support an upper house like TEP’s Magisterium.

That would face the same roadblock to this proposal, with not enough willingness to trial a concept, with the idea of switching it back if it doesn't work out.

Which is a shame, as inactivity is encouraged by keeping things the same and not exploring new ideas.

 

[Clorinda]

That would face the same roadblock to this proposal, with not enough willingness to trial a concept, with the idea of switching it back if it doesn't work out.

Which is a shame, as inactivity is encouraged by keeping things the same and not exploring new ideas.

Let’s draft one up then, I’ll DM you on Discord later today so we can get something ironed out before presenting it.