[Proposal] Treaty of Fuhuo Text and Discussion

[treadwellia]

This post is the text, as of May 13, 2019, of the Treaty of Fùhuó between Lazarus and The West Pacific. We've been bouncing this around with their regional reps for a little while now, so now we're pitching it to the good people of Lazarus for further discussion.

-- Treadwellia, Delegate of Lazarus

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[align=center]



Treaty of Fùhuó[/align]
Preamble

Desiring once more that there shall be lasting peace and friendship between Lazarus and The West Pacific, this treaty is declared to be agreed upon by the governments of both regions, broadening and rejoicing in both the present and future friendship between the two regions. Each region shall respect the independence, sovereignty, and principles of the other and refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of the other, working only toward the betterment of each.

Article I - Recognition of Sovereignty

A. The members of this treaty recognize the independence and sovereignty of the current government of each region and agree to recognize any legal government that follows.
B. The current and thus legal governments as of the time of the signing of this treaty are the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus, ruling over Lazarus, and the Delegate of the West Pacific, ruling over the West Pacific, as per The Manners of Governance.
C. Both regions recognize that the sovereignty of each region is vested in the preferred system of each of the legal governments.
D. Both regions agree not to take up arms against one another, nor undertake any action that is aimed at the subversion of the legitimate government of either region.

Article II – Mutual Defense

A. Signatories of this treaty agree to provide defense for one another and may call on each other in times of crisis, or any other circumstance that is deemed a threat to the legal governments of either region.
B. Such defense is not limited in scope, and the regional governments of both regions may request any form of help that they feel is necessary in trying circumstances, which can include everything from a statement by the other regional government, to a call for military assistance.
C. A Request for military assistance may only be filed by the legal government of each region.
D. If one region makes what would be considered an unachievable demand of military resources from the other during a time of crisis, such as due to demanding more resources than can be reasonably fulfilled by the assisting region, then the assisting region may respectfully reject the request but may offer a counter negotiation of resources and act accordingly in a good faith effort to offer what aid can be given from its available resource reserves.
E. If one region comes into possession of intelligence that could put the other region at risk, such information must be reported to the other regional government's officials as quickly as possible. Any information shared between the parties of this treaty will be kept confidential to the greatest capability of both regional governments, and such information will not be presented publicly unless the regions have both agreed.

Article III – Military Cooperation

A. Signatory regions shall not engage in military hostilities against each other. This includes direct military operations against each other's sovereign territories and engaging in military operations in assistance of a belligerent, opposing force of the other region.
B. Individual military operations do not need the approval of the other region as long as it does not violate Article III, A.
C. The signatories of this treaty agree to the principle of military cooperation, and agree to work together militarily to if they so wish it and if it is possible.
D. Both regions agree to recognize that the militaries of each regions are independent entities, protected under the right of sovereignty, and that they may engage each other on opposite sides of the battlefield in typical military gameplay; moreover, such engagements should not offend either region, but be greeted with respect in the spirit of competition.
E. Though strongly encouraged, neither region is obligated to participate in any military operation of the other, with the exception of the mutual defense agreements spelled out in this treaty.

Article IV – Diplomatic Cooperation

A. Each signatory will endeavor to provide diplomatic support to the other signatory, where it is possible for them to do so, while being consistent with their own internal policies.
B. Signatory regions shall provide an embassy for the other signatory on their forums and shall provide a representative from their region who will act as an ambassador from their region.
C. Each signatory will endeavor to keep the other up-to-date on their regional affairs.
D. Each ambassador shall behave in a respectable manner towards the signatory region. This includes, but is not limited to, obeying regional laws where it is applicable and following any ambassadorial protocol that the signatory region has already in place.
E. Either signatory region may request that the ambassador sent to them by the other signatory be replaced if it is deemed that clauses IV.C or IV.D have not been followed appropriately by that individual.
F. If either signatory region cannot fulfill the request as stated in Article IV.E, both regions may discuss and negotiate an alternative solution to the issue.

Article V – Cultural Activities

A. Each signatory will endeavor, where appropriate to engage in social and cultural activities with the other signatory. This can include, but is not limited to, festivals, competitions, and other shared events.

Article VI – Termination of Treaty

A. If either regional government is considering withdrawal from this treaty, representatives from both regions must first meet and make a good-faith effort to find a solution to the issue(s) causing withdrawal.
B. If that good-faith effort fails, then either member of this treaty may withdraw at their discretion.
C. There will then be a five-day period before the treaty cancellation is considered final.
D. Termination of this treaty shall not be seen as an act of war or hostility by either side.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[End of Document]

 

[The Pharcyde]

Full support.

 

[joWhatup]

Wholeheartedly in favour!

 

[treadwellia]

It's been five days. Any other ongoing discussion?

 

[The Pharcyde]

Doesn't seem like it

 

[Constie]

I would be fully prepared for a full introduction of this treaty to the Assembly.

 

[Arlo]

Desiring once more that there shall be lasting peace and friendship between Lazarus and The West Pacific, this treaty is declared to be agreed upon by the governments of both regions, broadening and rejoicing in both the present and future friendship between the two regions. Each region shall respect the independence, sovereignty, and principles of the other and refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of the other, working only toward the betterment of each.

Article I - Recognition of Sovereignty

A. The members of this treaty recognize the independence and sovereignty of the current government of each region and agree to recognize any legal government that follows.
B. The current and thus legal governments as of the time of the signing of this treaty are the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus, ruling over Lazarus, and the Delegate of the West Pacific, ruling over the West Pacific, as per The Manners of Governance.
C. Both regions recognize that the sovereignty of each region is vested in the preferred system of each of the legal governments.
D. Both regions agree not to take up arms against one another, nor undertake any action that is aimed at the subversion of the legitimate government of either region.

I find termination restrictions are super pointless in practice because if a region doesn't want the treaty anymore they'll just say they're out and that's that. Things like this are nice but rarely honoured.

 

[Imaginary]

Does anyone have any thoughts about how TWP's view on delegate supremacy might affect their treatied allegiance to the government of the 12th Mandate in the event of a Laz coup?

I don't have a lot of experience dealing with TWP under that kind of circumstance, but I would think that would be an extremely important thing to consider (which I haven't before, so sorry for sort of pulling this up out of the blue now - but I'm curious if any of y'all could give insight on).

 

[Arlo]

It's worth noting the preamble states the goal of "refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of the other" -- and historically TWP has treated coups as exactly that, as internal affairs which they have no business intervening in.

Under the proposed treaty, if a LazCoup happens, TWP would be bound to support the legal government as determined by the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus. I know the current Delegate and expect he would uphold that obligation regardless of personal views -- Halo isn't as callous as past Delegates have been.

The bigger problem would be if the situation happened the other way around -- if there is a coup in TWP it is unclear who we would be obligated to support.

 

[The Pharcyde]

Reading it a bit more closely and echoing the comments made by Arlo...

A. The members of this treaty recognize the independence and sovereignty of the current government of each region and agree to recognize any legal government that follows.
B. The current and thus legal governments as of the time of the signing of this treaty are the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus, ruling over Lazarus, and the Delegate of the West Pacific, ruling over the West Pacific, as per The Manners of Governance.

"Current and thus legal" is a very specific way of phrasing this. Did that wording come from us or from TWP?

Saying that we are the legal government as a consequence of being "current" begs the question of what "current" means. It sounds like it can be interpreted as saying that Mandate 12 is legal because of who currently has the delegacy. I would feel better about things if it said "current and thus

The bigger problem would be if the situation happened the other way around -- if there is a coup in TWP it is unclear who we would be obligated to support.

I don't have any idea about this right now but it is a very important point to discuss.

 

[treadwellia]

In answer to a concern raised above, the majority of the text is from TWP, subject to some occasional edits from mostly me. I went all English teacher on a couple of points in particular. Keep the discussion coming, gang. We want as much input as we can reliably get.

 

[Cormac]

I'm not in favor of this treaty, personally, for the aforementioned concerns regarding their Delegate supremacy views and unreliability in the event of coups, and for a couple other reasons. Generally speaking, I just don't think this is at all in our interests.

First, the West Pacific was one of a handful of regions to come here and support Neenee and/or Adytus during LazAnarchy. Support for either of them is wholly unacceptable to me. The world has known how dangerous and untrustworthy Neenee is for years, and by that point everyone knew Adytus was untrustworthy as well, though no one besides the NPO yet knew he was Feux in disguise. Nonetheless, instead of doing what other regions did and backing either a candidate for Delegate the Lazarene community supported, or endorsing Imki herself and no one else, the West Pacific opted to push for their own agenda and attempted to install Neenee and/or Adytus as Delegate of Lazarus. Keep in mind that Neenee had just been a Guardian of the West Pacific before then as well, so they were very much pushing for one of their own to become Delegate of Lazarus. They had no regard for Lazarus' sovereignty then, and I have no confidence they'll have any regard for Lazarus' sovereignty in the future, particularly after Halo's Delegacy has ended and depending on who is selected to replace him. The tentacles Neenee has in that region still run quite deep and I don't believe the West Pacific can be trusted over the long haul.

Moreover, I have serious concerns about us adopting another treaty with another raider-leaning region. Lazarus is supposed to be neutral, but our treaty choices are definitely imbalancing us toward the raider sphere. With Osiris, a treaty made sense. We had a preexisting and pretty well rooted relationship. I don't think this treaty makes much sense for us, for the above reasons, and I don't like the network of regions this particular treaty would start to shift us toward. The West Pacific has treaties with, among others, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. These are not regions that have historically been friendly to Lazarus, except occasionally TEP in an on again, off again way, but TEP has been downright bizarre with Fedele in office there. I don't think being tangled in a web with those regions is desirable for Lazarus, and getting into a treaty with TWP is going to mean a more complicated situation in regard to our stance toward TWP's allies. I would rather we didn't. And I would rather see more balance in our treaty pursuits going forward. Raider-leaning regions shouldn't be the only regions we're looking toward for alliances. I'm sure that hasn't been intentional, don't get me wrong. But I do think it's something we need to be more mindful of going forward. It's important that Lazarus maintain its neutrality.

I do commend Tubbius and the Foreign Affairs team for the work they've done on this though. I just think we should look elsewhere.

 

[The Pharcyde]

That's awfully convincing. Based on that and previous comments I change my mind.

Against.

 

[Arlo]

I like and trust the current TWP Delegate. I expect he would faithfully uphold the treaty to the best of his ability.

The problem is that once Halo leaves that chair the treaty will possibly be worth a lot less. TWP has no rule of law, no set constitutional arrangement, limited continuity of government, limited continuity of policy. It makes them an unpredictable long term ally. And historically they have been rather unreliable -- again I want to emphasise Halo is great and would absolutely be a reliable ally, but we need to look beyond his delegacy.

 

[joWhatup]

I believe the concern about TWP being unreliable are a matter of trust. Indeed, TWP's view of delegate supremacy is concerning, but they also say that it is completely the right of natives to fight that delegate. As for the current administration, Halo is absolutely trustworthy and will stick to his word. I also believe he will choose the right successor.

Moreover, I have serious concerns about us adopting another treaty with another raider-leaning region. Lazarus is supposed to be neutral, but our treaty choices are definitely imbalancing us toward the raider sphere. With Osiris, a treaty made sense. We had a preexisting and pretty well rooted relationship. I don't think this treaty makes much sense for us, for the above reasons, and I don't like the network of regions this particular treaty would start to shift us toward. The West Pacific has treaties with, among others, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. These are not regions that have historically been friendly to Lazarus, except occasionally TEP in an on again, off again way, but TEP has been downright bizarre with Fedele in office there. I don't think being tangled in a web with those regions is desirable for Lazarus, and getting into a treaty with TWP is going to mean a more complicated situation in regard to our stance toward TWP's allies. I would rather we didn't. And I would rather see more balance in our treaty pursuits going forward. Raider-leaning regions shouldn't be the only regions we're looking toward for alliances. I'm sure that hasn't been intentional, don't get me wrong. But I do think it's something we need to be more mindful of going forward. It's important that Lazarus maintain its neutrality.

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

 

[Cormac]

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

 

[joWhatup]

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

 

[treadwellia]

All right, folks. Any further discussion, or are we all ready to go for a potential vote on this draft going live? Let me know.

 

[treadwellia]

All right. Looking like I need McChimp to push through a vote on this as-is. If folks go for it, cool; I'll let 'the others know If not, then I suppose I can reopen discussions about potential fixes or adjustments.

 

[Cormac]

Seconding the motion to vote, if that's a thing that needs to happen.