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[Discussion] Off-site Property Administration Amendment (September 2018)

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Amerion

Amerion

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Relevant subsections of the Mandate

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[align=left] Mandate - VII. Regulation of Government Officials

(1) The Delegate, the Vice Delegate, the Assembly Speaker, Cabinet Ministers, Court Justices, Councillors of Lazarene Security, or any other government official established by law or policy must be citizens of Lazarus .[/align]
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[align=left] Mandate - VIII. Off-site Property Administration

(1) The root administrator of off-site property, which will be the same citizen for all official Lazarene off-site property, will be responsible for the appointment and removal of citizens to serve as off-site property administrators and moderators for each off-site property. Membership in off-site property administration and moderation teams will not be construed to constitute government office.[/align]
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There is a loophole which I think we should consider closing, with language that should be tightened.

As it stands, administrators and moderators of off-site property are not explicitly required to be citizens. There is an implication that they should hold citizenship in VIII (1). However, as the Mandate specifically regulates citizenship requirements for government officials, it is only logical for off-site administration to be held to the same exact standard as well, considering their function.

TLDR: an appropriate remedy for this issue would be to amend the relevant sections, stipulating that administrators and moderators are to hold citizenship status.

[align=center][size=medium]Off-site Property Administration Amendment (September 2018)[/size]

Proposed By: Amerion[/align]
[align=left]Preamble

This amendment of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus necessitates members of off-site property administration to maintain citizenship.

Section 1. Amendment of Article VII

(1) After subsection 1, insert:

[align=left]
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[align=left] Citizenship requirement for off-site property administration

(2) Members of off-site property administration teams must be citizens of Lazarus.

Automatic removal of off-site property administration

(3) Members of off-site property administration teams will be automatically removed from their position upon loss of citizenship or their nation in Lazarus voluntarily relocating or ceasing to exist.[/align]
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Sounds good to me, though I can't help but imagine what would happen if a root of here or the Discord were to lose citizenship, given the inability to appeal to a higher power to strip their powers :p
 
This.

It's a good amendment ideally, but realistically, Imki owns both servers. In a hypothetical scenario of the far future where she loses citizenship, that would require us to make new forums and discord server, which is just not realistic.

Perhaps the root should be given automatic citizenship, then in order for you to become an off-site administrator, you must be a citizen first, and loss of citizenship (due to CTE) will result in a warning which if not heeded.

That, or we subject all removals of admin staff to an Assembly vote, which is a little bit more realistic than automatic removals.
 
TempestShadow;3217 said:
Sounds good to me, though I can't help but imagine what would happen if a root of here or the Discord were to lose citizenship, given the inability to appeal to a higher power to strip their powers :p
Click to expand...

This.

It's a good amendment ideally, but realistically, Imki owns both servers. In a hypothetical scenario of the far future where she loses citizenship, that would require us to make new forums and discord server, which is just not realistic.

Perhaps the root should be given automatic citizenship, then in order for you to become an off-site administrator, you must be a citizen first, and loss of citizenship (due to CTE) will result in a warning which if not heeded.

That, or we subject all removals of admin staff to an Assembly vote, which is a little bit more realistic than automatic removals.
 
Perhaps just the roots have the escape clause of sorts, though we should obviously push that they maintain citizenship as such.
 
TempestShadow;3217 said:
Sounds good to me, though I can't help but imagine what would happen if a root of here or the Discord were to lose citizenship, given the inability to appeal to a higher power to strip their powers :p
Click to expand...
Harmoneia;3220 said:
...

It's a good amendment ideally, but realistically, Imki owns both servers. In a hypothetical scenario of the far future where she loses citizenship, that would require us to make new forums and discord server, which is just not realistic.

Perhaps the root should be given automatic citizenship, then in order for you to become an off-site administrator, you must be a citizen first, and loss of citizenship (due to CTE) will result in a warning which if not heeded.

That, or we subject all removals of admin staff to an Assembly vote, which is a little bit more realistic than automatic removals.
Click to expand...

[A wild Harmoneia appears. Amerion uses a Master ball]

On this note, Imki would only lose citizenship is she voluntarily relocates or ceases to exist; in which case, with her as root administrator, would cause greater problems than any legislation here could resolve. It would necessitate a reorganisation/relocation of our public infrastructure. And as the only (likely) requirement to maintain citizenship is to maintain a nation in Lazarus, it goes back to the previous point.

As to your suggestion, I think it is logical. We could stipulate in the Citizenship Act that Imki, by virtue of being the root administrator, is granted citizenship in perpetuity. Would such a provision be acceptable?
 
Looks fine to me, maybe we should have the roots shared between the WAD, VD and then one or two trusted "admins"? Basically have like Senior Admins(only like 2 people or so) that actually do most of the admining but Imki still hold the Root account so that nobody can pull weird crap in the future with some cit having root or whatever :p

But it looks good either way!
 
Only problem I could see with this is what if a few in the assembly hypothetically decided to remove an admin? On what grounds should an admin be removed? Is a trial required to remove citizenship and then admin? A super majority vote?
 
Legalist Zombal;3239 said:
Looks fine to me, maybe we should have the roots shared between the WAD, VD and then one or two trusted "admins"? Basically have like Senior Admins(only like 2 people or so) that actually do most of the admining but Imki still hold the Root account so that nobody can pull weird crap in the future with some cit having root or whatever :p

But it looks good either way!
Click to expand...

I'd prefer if we limit access to the Root account as much as possible.
 
Perhaps have the CLS, on the occasion that the Root Admin has lost citizenship, becomes inactive, or something equally devastating, on deciding on a new forum, with a new Root Admin, or keeping the forum for some reason?

Or we could perhaps allow Root Admins to be non-citizens, as long as they abide by Lazarene law and such, and leave the door open for either the CLS or the Assembly to decide if that is an issue and move to a new forum, or allow the Root Admin and their forum to remain.
 
Legalist Zombal;3239 said:
Looks fine to me, maybe we should have the roots shared between the WAD, VD and then one or two trusted "admins"? Basically have like Senior Admins(only like 2 people or so) that actually do most of the admining but Imki still hold the Root account so that nobody can pull weird crap in the future with some cit having root or whatever :p

But it looks good either way!
Click to expand...
New Rogernomics;3240 said:
Only problem I could see with this is what if a few in the assembly hypothetically decided to remove an admin? On what grounds should an admin be removed? Is a trial required to remove citizenship and then admin? A super majority vote?
Click to expand...
Ryccia;3245 said:
Perhaps have the CLS, on the occasion that the Root Admin has lost citizenship, becomes inactive, or something equally devastating, on deciding on a new forum, with a new Root Admin, or keeping the forum for some reason?

Or we could perhaps allow Root Admins to be non-citizens, as long as they abide by Lazarene law and such, and leave the door open for either the CLS or the Assembly to decide if that is an issue and move to a new forum, or allow the Root Admin and their forum to remain.
Click to expand...

Based on the discussions on Discord, I think the consensus is to not make allowance for the root account holder but rather give warning to every person who is at risk of losing their citizenship due to inactivity.
 
Before this goes to vote, and I appreciate I'm a little late, I probably ought to say that I'm not sure this is necessary.

The Mandate already requires that admins be citizens (at least when they are appointed). Given the OOC nature of the position I see no reason to legislate too deeply regarding their citizenship: does it really need to be written that the root admin should maintain an active and involved team? If it does, would that not be better written as an admin policy?
 
McChimp;3330 said:
Before this goes to vote, and I appreciate I'm a little late, I probably ought to say that I'm not sure this is necessary.

The Mandate already requires that admins be citizens (at least when they are appointed). Given the OOC nature of the position I see no reason to legislate too deeply regarding their citizenship: does it really need to be written that the root admin should maintain an active and involved team? If it does, would that not be better written as an admin policy?
Click to expand...



The Mandate implies that administrators hold citizenship status but it does not explicitly state the requirement. Comparatively, it has four subsections going into detail on the citizenship requirements of government officials. I understand that the two groups of people are not exactly comparable in terms of importance to our public infrastructure, but I also see no issue with clarifying what is a logical necessity. If a person is to be entrusted with access to Lazarus' forum and Discord control panels then it only stands to reason that they should be citizens of Lazarus. The alternative is simply nonsensical.

I am in full agreement with you that this Assembly should not legislate on admin policy (although I believe that the community would be well served if and when the administration team works with the general public in formulating its policy), however, I think this basic requirement does not amount to a restraint on the team.

As to your point of whether the root admin should maintain an active and involved team, I do not believe this amendment necessitates that; only that the root not lose (her) citizenship; something which I do not think is a possibility (or, if it is, will be an issue we shall have to address further down the track). I expect that Imki would transfer the root if she finishes with NationStates.
 
Amerion;3332 said:
As to your point of whether the root admin should maintain an active and involved team
Click to expand...

But presumably the point, ultimately, of an admin citizenship requirement would be to ensure that all admins are active and involved. Why bother if not to achieve that? And could that not be more neatly achieved by an admin policy without cluttering up the constitution too much with an OOC institution?
 
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