[Discussion] Europeia-NPO War, OFO Debacle

[Milograd]

Probably something we as a citizenry should discuss.

1) The OFO stuff was moronic: Why go after Osiris? Not to mention how much of a disaster getting caught is. At least had it been Balder there'd be some continuity of rhetoric.

2) The St Abbaddon stuff I'm not sure about. It seems to me like the natives welcome the NPO and TBH is looking for something to do in this god awfully boring GP landscape. I don't see a moral component whatsoever.

Having said that, I'm opposed to supporting Europeia's war (for many obvious reasons), but I think we have to at least talk about our position on the OFO incident. 

EDIT: To be clear, I strongly oppose the notion that GCRs owe it to each other to be allies, friends, or whatever. It's a stupid concept that I'm surprised is still being peddled. Instead of using that crap, I think we should focus on our interests within Osiris and The Pacific, our current relationships with these regions, and the forecast moving forward.

[Milograd]

I am hoping to leverage my history in The Pacific to have a conversation with Aleisyr directly. I want a clearer picture of what's going on over there.

Until then I'm going to refrain from commenting further.

[New Rogernomics]

Well it alters regional history at least, without laying blame to anyone.

Just made a modification to the Record of Delegates: https://nslazarus.com/showthread.php?tid...80#pid3580

[Milograd]

Oh wow, I had no idea Stu became delegate again.

[Ryccia]

We should not get involved in the slightest. But the OFO affair is concerning indeed...

We have not developed relations to any side at this point, so far as I know. Neutrality is best. But I am opposed to pursuing any relationship with the NPO due to the war (which may complicate relations with other regions) and this entire spying debacle (which is abhorrent and an outright insult to Osiris and other targets).

[Mysterious Player]

We should not get involved in the slightest. But the OFO affair is concerning indeed...

We have not developed relations to any side at this point, so far as I know. Neutrality is best.

I definitely think it's worth doing something about the fact that the NPO spied on a region very similar to ours, after couping our region and apologizing for it 3 years before (and then infiltrating our region again anyway.)

[Ryccia]

Certainly it would be so if we were a continuing government. But that is not the case. We are a clean slate, disconnected from the past. It is useful to learn of our history, but I do not see any benefits on taking a stance as of now. We, as the Twelfth Mandate, a regime with no connections to the past, have no concrete relations to any side as of now, and if we take a stance as of this time, we will only incur the wrath of the NPO (which is very good at infiltration, I hear!) and not much else. Statements must have a practical reason. If we are just to condemn with no practicality, what use is there for it? Let us have friends first to back.

From what I know, this affair was not sanctioned officially (but Aleisyr certainly knew in April 2018 and never told a single word!), but it is still a horrific act by top officials in the NPO, yes. I am enraged at the Pacific for this act of aggression and negligence against Osiris. But feelings should not determine official policy. Neutrality is best, and so is disavowing any further relations with the NPO. We should not have friendly connections to this serial, lying aggressor who is incapable and unwilling to control its officials. But we should not be caught in this mess either with no practical reason.

[New Rogernomics]

I am going to be careful here, as it is a sensitive subject.

1. Lazarus is not bound by the Undead Dominion, the Celestial Union or the Humane Republic, as of the Constitutional Resolution to Clarify Continuity with Past Governments Act, so as such we are not required to respond as they would. 

2. While it is true that we are not required to respond in that light, we would naive to not recognize that, whether by intent of the New Pacific Order, or by the poor decision of a member of the New Pacific Order, a citizen of the New Pacific Order did deceive the Celestial Union and Humane Republic, by violating a regional ban, lying on their citizenship application, and reaching the highest levels of government. Technically by laws of most regions, including Lazarus, that would have amounted to treason at the time.

3. Osiris also was infiltrated, to an extent still be determined, and it is up to Osiris to decide the full scale of that. Though this is the response they provided on their forum: Administrative Bans 

Hello, people of Osiris and the Gameplay community.

Adytus,Wrektopia, Kowassati, and Weast Jurmany were four members of our community who rose to prominence following the removal of The Almighty Jesus Whale from Osiris in 2016. Adytus's ten thousand posts on our board easily doubles the post count of the next highest user. They became Guardians of Osiris, and in Kowassati's case Vizier of Foreign Affairs. They were important assets to the community until their attempt to sink the Scroll of Horus during our most recent constitutional convention, after which they left the region entirely and headed to Lazarus for the most part.

The admin team has obtained evidence that these users, all this time, were aliases of other players: Feux was Adytus, A mean old man was Wrektopia, Stujenske was Kowassati, and Weast Jurmany was AMOM's close friend in real life. This is completely unacceptable, and this sort of duplicity has always been and will continue to be unwelcome in the Osiris Fraternal Order.

Effective immediately, the administration of the Osiris Fraternal Order has permanently banned the following users: Adytus, Wrektopia, Kowassati, Weast Jurmany, Feux, and Stujenske.

ADDENDUM: Stujenske, Kowassati, and Weast Jurmany added.

4. We won't be going to war over this or breaking off diplomatic relations (at least at this point), and it is pretty firm so far that we will be maintaining a policy of neutrality, where possible, but there is for sure plenty of sympathy for Osiris, where we do have a good diplomatic relationship.

5. What we are still deciding upon will be up to a review of evidence, but it seems realistic that a diplomatic protest at most will be our response at this time, the nature of which is still being discussed.

[Galiantus]

I agree with these sentiments. I personally feel that, given our position as a region, we should mainly focus on not being a weak target for the NPO. Plenty of other regions are declaring war, and I know there are many within the region who will join those efforts of their own accord. As a region, however, we should avoid aggression in a war with the kind of potential to turn deadly, especially after the region has gone nearly a year without a stable government.

[Mysterious Player]

I agree with these sentiments. I personally feel that, given our position as a region, we should mainly focus on not being a weak target for the NPO. Plenty of other regions are declaring war, and I know there are many within the region who will join those efforts of their own accord. As a region, however, we should avoid aggression in a war with the kind of potential to turn deadly, especially after the region has gone nearly a year without a stable government.

Regardless of whether we declare war or not, we are a weak target for the NPO from their perspective, as shown by how often they meddle in our internal affairs. We are better off showing that we don't tolerate their actions towards us in solidarity with others, rather than being sitting ducks.

Also, their willingness to seek the support (and conceal the identity of) universally blacklisted players is something that needs to be dealt with in it's own right.