Cabinet Deputy Elections Amendment

[New Rogernomics]

Cabinet Deputy Elections Amendment (August 2020)
 
Proposed by: @"New Rogernomics"

Section 1. Amendment of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus

(1) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus reads:

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Establishment of the Cabinet

(4) The Prime Minister will set the course of the Cabinet with such ministries, programs, and activities as they determine are beneficial for Lazarus.

(5) The Prime Minister may issue executive directives to set public policy for executive ministries, programs, and activities. Such directives will remain in effect unless rescinded by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister. Such directives may also be amended by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister.

(6) The Prime Minister may appoint Cabinet Ministers to assist with executive ministries, programs and activities, and must fill any ministries mandated by law. Appointment of Cabinet Ministers will be subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Assembly.

(7) Cabinet Ministers will serve until the end of the Prime Minister's term or until resignation, removal from office by the Assembly or the Prime Minister, or automatic removal from office.

(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.

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(2) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus will be amended to include:

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(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment, election, and removal of Cabinet deputies.

(9) At least one Cabinet Deputy shall be elected per ministry, with their number and responsibilities at the discretion of the Prime Minister.

(10) Cabinet Deputy elections will be held if a vacancy should exist.

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Edit: Crossed out 9 and 10.

[temmi]

I think more elections for more positions can be a good thing. Deputies would be a good start so we can try it out and still let the Cabinet Ministers be appointed awhile. It would give newer people a chance to run and compete for positions in the government without waiting for a PM or LazDev election too!

[Domais]

No support from me, just add something like they can hold elections if Cabinet Minister/Deputy positions if they feel like it. Also, Deputies are kinda pointless, TBH. If this passes, a Prime Minister could be like, okay I'll hold elections for this position but I'm not giving them any power because I don't care. Moreover, if the Prime Minister doesn't like the results of the election he can nullify it by removing the Deputy and holding a new election, furthermore, they could do this perpetually. Besides we have an inactive problem and I doubt we could honestly put deputies in every ministry.

[McChimp]

Not in favour. The key to activity is good governance, not more elections. Cabinet deputies should be selected by the cabinet so that they can work together as well as possible.

Electing all cabinet ministers is also a bad idea-it robs the Prime Minister of authority, rendering the position redundant and depriving the region of an effective head of government and the leadership that provides.

[New Rogernomics]

No support from me, just add something like they can hold elections if Cabinet Minister/Deputy positions if they feel like it. Also, Deputies are kinda pointless, TBH. If this passes, a Prime Minister could be like, okay I'll hold elections for this position but I'm not giving them any power because I don't care. Moreover, if the Prime Minister doesn't like the results of the election he can nullify it by removing the Deputy and holding a new election, furthermore, they could do this perpetually. Besides we have an inactive problem and I doubt we could honestly put deputies in every ministry.

That would be the modified section 8 above, which is only modified to include the word election.

[New Rogernomics]

Not in favour. The key to activity is good governance, not more elections. Cabinet deputies should be selected by the cabinet so that they can work together as well as possible.

Electing all cabinet ministers is also a bad idea-it robs the Prime Minister of authority, rendering the position redundant and depriving the region of an effective head of government and the leadership that provides.

To quote Yes Minister, yes, and no. The Delegate in numerous Lazarene govements effectively held the powers of the PM, and electing Ministers never left them powerless. Both the HRL and CU didn't lose activity electing Ministers, and really not electing Ministers is more of a recent development. Can go back to when I joined Lazarus, and even then Ministers were elected - and with an even less active region. 

You can have un-elected Ministers and still make it work, which is where the 'yes' part comes in. Ultimately, electing Ministers, or not, is a neutral policy, as both rely on effective Ministers in existence and the political will to make either means of appointing ministers work. If you have lousy appointments by PMs, or lousy candidates in elections, the result is essentially the same i.e. a useless and ineffective cabinet. Only difference is if Ministers are elected, citizens take a greater share of the blame if they choose poorly - and more than one person is deciding who makes up the cabinet.

[Demonos]

Wait, this is different from the original proposal. We do not support.

[Frankender]

I do not support this amendment, for two reasons:

1. The amendment reads: (S1.2.8) "The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment, election, and removal of Cabinet deputies."
Why would it requires both an appointment and then an election of cabinet deputies? How can a candidate be appointed yet also partake in an election for the same position? It doesn't make sense.

2. I disagree with requiring elections for the appointment of cabinet deputies. I do not believe an election is necessary for a position that reports to an already-elected position.

[New Rogernomics]

Why would it requires both an appointment and then an election of cabinet deputies? How can a candidate be appointed yet also partake in an election for the same position? It doesn't make sense.

They wouldn't be one after the other, and it would depend on the ministry, and what the PM wants to do with it. If the PM wants to elect a deputy in the Ministry of Silly Walks, and also still appoint deputies in the Ministry of Silly walks, that would be their choice.

I disagree with requiring elections for the appointment of cabinet deputies. I do not believe an election is necessary for a position that reports to an already-elected position.

If they were elected, it would be for the purpose of encouraging others to put forth their ideas of what they would do in the Ministry, and to compete for a position that isn't theirs outright by favor of the PM. The downside of appointments rather than elections is that while the PM has popular support, deputies do not. That's essentially the argument you can make against any positions that don't go through an election i.e. actually having to compete with others for a position vs just getting it handed to you through an easy confirmation.

Though, I haven't seen much interest in the idea in this thread. So haven't pursued it.

[Frankender]

Why would it requires both an appointment and then an election of cabinet deputies? How can a candidate be appointed yet also partake in an election for the same position? It doesn't make sense.

They wouldn't be one after the other, and it would depend on the ministry, and what the PM wants to do with it. If the PM wants to elect a deputy in the Ministry of Silly Walks, and also still appoint deputies in the Ministry of Silly walks, that would be their choice.

I don't think the word "election" should be needed to make this happen.  If the Prime Minister has the ultimate power to appoint any cabinet deputies of his choice, and wants to run an election, he is well within his right to hold an election for a position, then appoint the winner of said election.

I disagree with requiring elections for the appointment of cabinet deputies. I do not believe an election is necessary for a position that reports to an already-elected position.

If they were elected, it would be for the purpose of encouraging others to put forth their ideas of what they would do in the Ministry, and to compete for a position that isn't theirs outright by favor of the PM. The downside of appointments rather than elections is that while the PM has popular support, deputies do not. That's essentially the argument you can make against any positions that don't go through an election i.e. actually having to compete with others for a position vs just getting it handed to you through an easy confirmation.

Kinda goes again with my point above. If its the Prime Minister's discretion, I don't think there is anything that would stop the Prime Minister from running an election of his choice.

Though, I haven't seen much interest in the idea in this thread. So haven't pursued it.

I know you say you aren't pursuing it, but I am still discussing it in case it was ever taken to a vote, that's all, primarily since there hasn't been any sort of motion to table it or anything.