Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020)

[joWhatup]

I remain opposed. This is unsurprising since only a few short months have passed since this exact law failed. This is a waste of time.

The majority of people voted in favour - just not the majority required. Clearly NR and the people who have offered actual feedback disagree with you.

The Guard is capable as-is. The inevitable result of this would be a raider-aligned Lazarus.

It definitely isn’t. The Guard is limited, and while Sylven and Melons have been running things well, you’re inevitably going to end up with an inactive and bored military if all they can do is walk into the same Warzones over and over again. This was a problem when I ran the Guard and I don’t think it isn’t an issue now.

Not only would this bill jeopardise several of the government's foreign policy objectives, the very idea that our future delegate is going to keep proposing it until voter exhaustion sets in may have already caused them significant damage.

Given the government exists to serve the region, if your government department believes that, should this law pass with the sufficient majority among citizens, their objectives are threatened, perhaps your government department should rethink if it’s objectives truly serve the region and, by extension, the citizens.

[McChimp]

The majority of people voted in favour - just not the majority required. Clearly NR and the people who have offered actual feedback disagree with you.

I don't dispute that there are people in favour. My dispute is that it's unlikely, given the short span of time that has passed, that more people are in favour and therefore this proposal can only have been remade in the hopes that we will tire of arguing against it.

It definitely isn’t. The Guard is limited, and while Sylven and Melons have been running things well, you’re inevitably going to end up with an inactive and bored military if all they can do is walk into the same Warzones over and over again. This was a problem when I ran the Guard and I don’t think it isn’t an issue now.

Since you left the role, the Guard has been hailed by other regions as the most active sinker military. The idea that the Guard would be made more active by allowing tags/detags is simply a lie, and it really upsets me to see our newer players eating it out of the hands of people who have a conflict of interest with regards to this matter.

Given the government exists to serve the region, if your government department believes that, should this law pass with the sufficient majority among citizens, their objectives are threatened, perhaps your government department should rethink if it’s objectives truly serve the region and, by extension, the citizens.

Our objectives are no more complex than being friends with as many great regions as possible. I think that some of the people in favour of this bill don't realise what a mess it makes of that goal, how much of the wider world it will close off. I think that others still know this well, and are pursuing the objectives of other regions here.

Even in the few weeks since I took this position it has astonished me the goodwill Lazarus has recieved from every corner of gameplay because of our uninvolvement in R/D. Aside from the NPO, who we're obviously at war with, I do not think there is a single GCR with whom we could not be close friends right now. For once, Lazarus is doing something special and unique and it is doing us so much good and it makes me so angry to see that being thrown away.

[New Rogernomics]

For the record, I am neither in favor or not in favor of this* legislation. I put the first version forward to vote, as the discussion seemed to have gone around in circles, and it was perhaps best to settle what people wanted and didn't want through a vote.

Plenty of people found it acceptable as written, though not everyone did , and it failed. The point of getting involved on my end was that if we are going to have a debate, let's discuss the issue and suggest what we like or don't like, and if we don't get anywhere on this one issue, then move on from it.

When I brought the first drafts up, the idea was give the Delegate (or PMs if we want it that way) the right to say no for operations, as then the region could stop any operations that might be R/D or controversial. As I felt it should have an in-built off switch if the Regional Guard ever gets out of hand.

This can either be a Pandoras Box or an opportunity, so I'd suggest Shareholders put their ideas of what they think the guard should be like in this thread, but with some kind of provision for what is too far for the guard.

*My own ideas weren't developed enough on creating an R/D dynamic alternative, so I didn't bring them up further.

[joWhatup]

It definitely isn’t. The Guard is limited, and while Sylven and Melons have been running things well, you’re inevitably going to end up with an inactive and bored military if all they can do is walk into the same Warzones over and over again. This was a problem when I ran the Guard and I don’t think it isn’t an issue now.

Since you left the role, the Guard has been hailed by other regions as the most active sinker military. The idea that the Guard would be made more active by allowing tags/detags is simply a lie, and it really upsets me to see our newer players eating it out of the hands of people who have a conflict of interest with regards to this matter.

That's because both Osiris' and Balder's military lack any signs of life whatsoever. As for "simply a lie", it most certainly is not - being able to tag and detag would mean you could train people far better and easier, and even with smaller numbers you could actually get some practice and fun, both of which are necessary to keep a healthy military.

As for a "conflict of interest", what are you implying and who are you accusing?
 

Given the government exists to serve the region, if your government department believes that, should this law pass with the sufficient majority among citizens, their objectives are threatened, perhaps your government department should rethink if it’s objectives truly serve the region and, by extension, the citizens.

Our objectives are no more complex than being friends with as many great regions as possible. I think that some of the people in favour of this bill don't realise what a mess it makes of that goal, how much of the wider world it will close off. I think that others still know this well, and are pursuing the objectives of other regions here.

Except we are not taking a side. If anything, this means we can build ties through military cooperation alongside our allies and provide them with a larger force in case they need help. Being allowed to build a healthy military does not mean selling it off to foreign interests, as you oddly seem to believe.

What other regions' objectives are pursued, and what other regions are you implying?
 

Even in the few weeks since I took this position it has astonished me the goodwill Lazarus has recieved from every corner of gameplay because of our uninvolvement in R/D. Aside from the NPO, who we're obviously at war with, I do not think there is a single GCR with whom we could not be close friends right now. For once, Lazarus is doing something special and unique and it is doing us so much good and it makes me so angry to see that being thrown away.

Raids on Warzones can be continued. This amendment, though, provides a good tool for Lazarus to train new people and to still do stuff even when you don't have the 5+ updaters necessary for a Warzone. This does nothing to change our neutral alignment - all it does is provide a good tool for FA and the Military to use to their advantage. The other GCRs aren't run by fools - if we are able to tag and detag alongside them, they won't cut us off.

[McChimp]

That's because both Osiris' and Balder's military lack any signs of life whatsoever. As for "simply a lie", it most certainly is not - being able to tag and detag would mean you could train people far better and easier, and even with smaller numbers you could actually get some practice and fun, both of which are necessary to keep a healthy military.

As for a "conflict of interest", what are you implying and who are you accusing?

If that is the case then clearly the ability to tag is not the cure-all for the inactivity which our military isn't suffering from that you make it out to be. Tagging will train nobody to do anything but tag, it doesn't really contribute to any other skillset.

Your first loyalty is to Lone Wolves United and you are pursuing a foreign raider agenda before Lazarus' own interests.
 

Except we are not taking a side. If anything, this means we can build ties through military cooperation alongside our allies and provide them with a larger force in case they need help. Being allowed to build a healthy military does not mean selling it off to foreign interests, as you oddly seem to believe.

Raids on Warzones can be continued. This amendment, though, provides a good tool for Lazarus to train new people and to still do stuff even when you don't have the 5+ updaters necessary for a Warzone. This does nothing to change our neutral alignment - all it does is provide a good tool for FA and the Military to use to their advantage. The other GCRs aren't run by fools - if we are able to tag and detag alongside them, they won't cut us off.

This argument has been had a thousand times before and a thousand times before participation in R/D has resulted in alignment and division. This proposal doesn't represent any new ideas, it represents the stagnant ideas of a dying past. You lack the vision to see that what might have worked for the raiders who came before you will not work for you.

[joWhatup]

I will ignore your baseless, empty accusation made to score some cheap political points for now. I’d invite you to bring it to court, but we both know you won’t.

Now, as for the argument itself, I never claimed the military was inactive - people like Sylven and Melons are capable leaders and keep it active. It is still a struggle to keep it active if you need 5+ updaters every single time you want to do an operation. While I’m not a fan of either tagging or detagging, it does provide an opportunity to train new people in things like switching and jumping. It doesn’t require large teams either - so if the turnout to take a Warzone turns out disappointing, or you missed the initial target, you can still practice and have fun.

[Wymondham]

Although I'm not expressing an opinion on this until voting. Perhaps we can all maybe chill. I though we were meant to have moved on from calling people who disagree with us foreign subversives

[McChimp]

Although I'm not expressing an opinion on this until voting. Perhaps we can all maybe chill. I though we were meant to have moved on from calling people who disagree with us foreign subversives

Sure, we could pussyfoot around the fact that JoWhatup is the Khan of a raider org that plastered their flag on this region and proclaimed a raider paradise not two years ago.

Maybe we can set aside the fact that he leads an organisation that our sister sinker and ally Osiris-who you are supposed to represent as a Vizier-recently proscribed for being subversives.

Perhaps we should ignore the lip service he gave Scardino of East Pacifican infamy during each and every stage of his recent coup attempt.

Or maybe it'd be nice if the people who support this bill took even a cursory glance at who they're aligning themselves with and didn't make it so easy for him to drag this place back into the gutter.


I'm not calling him a subversive because I disagree with him, I disagree with him because he's a subversive. There are plenty of people in this region with whom I have had serious disagreements and did not call subversives.

[Wymondham]

Although I'm not expressing an opinion on this until voting. Perhaps we can all maybe chill. I though we were meant to have moved on from calling people who disagree with us foreign subversives

Sure, we could pussyfoot around the fact that JoWhatup is the Khan of a raider org that plastered their flag on this region and proclaimed a raider paradise not two years ago.

Maybe we can set aside the fact that he leads an organisation that our sister sinker and ally Osiris-who you are supposed to represent as a Vizier-recently proscribed for being subversives.

Perhaps we should ignore the lip service he gave Scardino of East Pacifican infamy during each and every stage of his recent coup attempt.


Or maybe it'd be nice if the people who support this bill took even a cursory glance at who they're aligning themselves with and didn't make it so easy for him to drag this place back into the gutter.

McChimp, I'm not talking in this thread as Vizier of FA in Osiris anymore than I am as NSToday PR Director of a Thalassian minister. I am talking in this thread as a Lazarene citizen. In my roles I represent the government's view of things as I am always bound by collective responsibility. I am not bound by any collective responsibility as a Lazarene citizens and was merely asking for more decorum in this situation lest we go back to the mud slinging fights over R/D of the past that this constitution was mean to represent a break from

[joWhatup]

Although I'm not expressing an opinion on this until voting. Perhaps we can all maybe chill. I though we were meant to have moved on from calling people who disagree with us foreign subversives

Sure, we could pussyfoot around the fact that JoWhatup is the Khan of a raider org that plastered their flag on this region and proclaimed a raider paradise not two years ago.

Maybe we can set aside the fact that he leads an organisation that our sister sinker and ally Osiris-who you are supposed to represent as a Vizier-recently proscribed for being subversives.

Perhaps we should ignore the lip service he gave Scardino of East Pacifican infamy during each and every stage of his recent coup attempt.


Or maybe it'd be nice if the people who support this bill took even a cursory glance at who they're aligning themselves with and didn't make it so easy for him to drag this place back into the gutter.

Even nicer it would be if our Minister of Foreign Affairs would show that he's capable of a calm, reasoned response, backed by evidence, and would actually criticise the proposal much rather than accuse whoever disagrees with him of acting in the interests of foreign regions. We can all dream, I suppose.

I will, once again, refer you to the courts if you believe I'm serving any foreign interests and am undermining the region. Until you do, though, I have no reason to get into a petty fight.