[Proposal] Treaty of Fuhuo Text and Discussion

[treadwellia]

In answer to a concern raised above, the majority of the text is from TWP, subject to some occasional edits from mostly me. I went all English teacher on a couple of points in particular. Keep the discussion coming, gang. We want as much input as we can reliably get.

[Cormac]

I'm not in favor of this treaty, personally, for the aforementioned concerns regarding their Delegate supremacy views and unreliability in the event of coups, and for a couple other reasons. Generally speaking, I just don't think this is at all in our interests.

First, the West Pacific was one of a handful of regions to come here and support Neenee and/or Adytus during LazAnarchy. Support for either of them is wholly unacceptable to me. The world has known how dangerous and untrustworthy Neenee is for years, and by that point everyone knew Adytus was untrustworthy as well, though no one besides the NPO yet knew he was Feux in disguise. Nonetheless, instead of doing what other regions did and backing either a candidate for Delegate the Lazarene community supported, or endorsing Imki herself and no one else, the West Pacific opted to push for their own agenda and attempted to install Neenee and/or Adytus as Delegate of Lazarus. Keep in mind that Neenee had just been a Guardian of the West Pacific before then as well, so they were very much pushing for one of their own to become Delegate of Lazarus. They had no regard for Lazarus' sovereignty then, and I have no confidence they'll have any regard for Lazarus' sovereignty in the future, particularly after Halo's Delegacy has ended and depending on who is selected to replace him. The tentacles Neenee has in that region still run quite deep and I don't believe the West Pacific can be trusted over the long haul.

Moreover, I have serious concerns about us adopting another treaty with another raider-leaning region. Lazarus is supposed to be neutral, but our treaty choices are definitely imbalancing us toward the raider sphere. With Osiris, a treaty made sense. We had a preexisting and pretty well rooted relationship. I don't think this treaty makes much sense for us, for the above reasons, and I don't like the network of regions this particular treaty would start to shift us toward. The West Pacific has treaties with, among others, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. These are not regions that have historically been friendly to Lazarus, except occasionally TEP in an on again, off again way, but TEP has been downright bizarre with Fedele in office there. I don't think being tangled in a web with those regions is desirable for Lazarus, and getting into a treaty with TWP is going to mean a more complicated situation in regard to our stance toward TWP's allies. I would rather we didn't. And I would rather see more balance in our treaty pursuits going forward. Raider-leaning regions shouldn't be the only regions we're looking toward for alliances. I'm sure that hasn't been intentional, don't get me wrong. But I do think it's something we need to be more mindful of going forward. It's important that Lazarus maintain its neutrality.

I do commend Tubbius and the Foreign Affairs team for the work they've done on this though. I just think we should look elsewhere.

[The Pharcyde]

That's awfully convincing. Based on that and previous comments I change my mind.

Against.

[Arlo]

I like and trust the current TWP Delegate. I expect he would faithfully uphold the treaty to the best of his ability.

The problem is that once Halo leaves that chair the treaty will possibly be worth a lot less. TWP has no rule of law, no set constitutional arrangement, limited continuity of government, limited continuity of policy. It makes them an unpredictable long term ally. And historically they have been rather unreliable -- again I want to emphasise Halo is great and would absolutely be a reliable ally, but we need to look beyond his delegacy.

[joWhatup]

I believe the concern about TWP being unreliable are a matter of trust. Indeed, TWP's view of delegate supremacy is concerning, but they also say that it is completely the right of natives to fight that delegate. As for the current administration, Halo is absolutely trustworthy and will stick to his word. I also believe he will choose the right successor.

Moreover, I have serious concerns about us adopting another treaty with another raider-leaning region. Lazarus is supposed to be neutral, but our treaty choices are definitely imbalancing us toward the raider sphere. With Osiris, a treaty made sense. We had a preexisting and pretty well rooted relationship. I don't think this treaty makes much sense for us, for the above reasons, and I don't like the network of regions this particular treaty would start to shift us toward. The West Pacific has treaties with, among others, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. These are not regions that have historically been friendly to Lazarus, except occasionally TEP in an on again, off again way, but TEP has been downright bizarre with Fedele in office there. I don't think being tangled in a web with those regions is desirable for Lazarus, and getting into a treaty with TWP is going to mean a more complicated situation in regard to our stance toward TWP's allies. I would rather we didn't. And I would rather see more balance in our treaty pursuits going forward. Raider-leaning regions shouldn't be the only regions we're looking toward for alliances. I'm sure that hasn't been intentional, don't get me wrong. But I do think it's something we need to be more mindful of going forward. It's important that Lazarus maintain its neutrality.

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

[Cormac]

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

Well, for starters, I'm not demanding anything. I'm stating a dissenting opinion.  :blink:

That aside, no, I'm not saying we should necessarily enter into a treaty with a defender-leaning region, though there are a few of those that would make good allies. It's also worth noting there are more options out there than raider and raider-leaning, defender and defender-leaning. If anything, I think we ought to be looking more toward regions that aren't all that R/D-focused in the first place, just as Lazarus is not all that R/D-focused. Looking primarily toward other neutral and non-aligned regions would be my preference. Common ground is the foundation upon which healthy, enduring alliances are built.

That said, I'm not averse to treaties with raider or raider-leaning regions, but I am averse to just thoughtlessly entering into any treaty for no real rhyme or reason. What is it about the West Pacific that even makes it an appealing ally for Lazarus? What is it about the West Pacific's allies that would make us want Lazarus to be numbered as one of them? Treaties have meaning. When we say yes to a certain sphere of regions, and move ever closer to them, we are closing the door inch by inch on relations with other regions that are averse to that sphere. Personally, I don't want to see Lazarus stuck in a sphere of influence that includes the West Pacific, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. Those regions have never been interested in upholding Lazarus' sovereignty, or demonstrated any regard for Lazarus' community, in the past. Why would we think they would now? Just because Halo is a good guy and is currently Delegate of the West Pacific? That isn't enough. Delegates change, but nothing has changed about the West Pacific's ideology.

It's not just that this is a treaty with another raider-leaning region. That's not the objectionable part. If we have good reason for a treaty with a raider or raider-leaning region, if it makes sense for Lazarus, then let's do it. I have no problem with it. But this is a treaty that doesn't seem to make any sense for Lazarus. This isn't like with Osiris, where there was a preexisting strong relationship, and a treaty just obviously made sense. I haven't seen anyone present a clear argument in favor of this alliance, all I've really seen is "Eh, why not?" You don't enter into alliances based on "Eh, why not?", especially not with a region that has the troubling history, ideology, and alliance network of the West Pacific. I'd like to hear some affirmative reasoning for this treaty. How does a treaty with the history, ideology, and alliance network of the West Pacific make sense? How does it benefit Lazarus? Those aren't unreasonable questions.

[joWhatup]

I'm going to sound harsh here, probably, but it has to be said.

Should we bend to the whims of foreign regions? Why should we shy away from allying ourselves with potential allies because they lean raider? We do not lean raider, and have made that clear. The fact that raider leaning regions currently are our allies does by no means entail we ourselves are raider leaning. We are a sovereign region, Cormac, if you hadn't guessed, and our current allies being raider, again, does not mean we raid. We stand up for our sovereignty, and don't choose a side in the R/D conflict. Are you demanding we treaty ourselves with a defender-leaning region just so we don't appear to be raider-leaning? Everyone who holds Lazarus' sovereignty in regard knows that we do not take a side. I don't think, at all, that we are obligated to ally ourselves with either side just to appear not to be taking the opposite side. We are, once again, a neutral region, and we stand for that. We are not, however, GP's plaything to call us raider/defender/whatever they feel like.

Well, for starters, I'm not demanding anything. I'm stating a dissenting opinion.  :blink:

That aside, no, I'm not saying we should necessarily enter into a treaty with a defender-leaning region, though there are a few of those that would make good allies. It's also worth noting there are more options out there than raider and raider-leaning, defender and defender-leaning. If anything, I think we ought to be looking more toward regions that aren't all that R/D-focused in the first place, just as Lazarus is not all that R/D-focused. Looking primarily toward other neutral and non-aligned regions would be my preference. Common ground is the foundation upon which healthy, enduring alliances are built.

That said, I'm not averse to treaties with raider or raider-leaning regions, but I am averse to just thoughtlessly entering into any treaty for no real rhyme or reason. What is it about the West Pacific that even makes it an appealing ally for Lazarus? What is it about the West Pacific's allies that would make us want Lazarus to be numbered as one of them? Treaties have meaning. When we say yes to a certain sphere of regions, and move ever closer to them, we are closing the door inch by inch on relations with other regions that are averse to that sphere. Personally, I don't want to see Lazarus stuck in a sphere of influence that includes the West Pacific, The East Pacific, Balder, and The Land of Kings and Emperors. Those regions have never been interested in upholding Lazarus' sovereignty, or demonstrated any regard for Lazarus' community, in the past. Why would we think they would now? Just because Halo is a good guy and is currently Delegate of the West Pacific? That isn't enough. Delegates change, but nothing has changed about the West Pacific's ideology.

It's not just that this is a treaty with another raider-leaning region. That's not the objectionable part. If we have good reason for a treaty with a raider or raider-leaning region, if it makes sense for Lazarus, then let's do it. I have no problem with it. But this is a treaty that doesn't seem to make any sense for Lazarus. This isn't like with Osiris, where there was a preexisting strong relationship, and a treaty just obviously made sense. I haven't seen anyone present a clear argument in favor of this alliance, all I've really seen is "Eh, why not?" You don't enter into alliances based on "Eh, why not?", especially not with a region that has the troubling history, ideology, and alliance network of the West Pacific. I'd like to hear some affirmative reasoning for this treaty. How does a treaty with the history, ideology, and alliance network of the West Pacific make sense? How does it benefit Lazarus? Those aren't unreasonable questions.

Neutral and non-aligned regions are hard to find, however. I do agree that those regions might be a good allies, but I can think of few.

I have my doubts that we are closing the door on relations with regions averse to the West Pacific. Mostly because I'm not aware of any region that would be particularly friendly towards us which has a problem with TWP. As for being stuck in a sphere of influence, again, we are not a plaything for other regions. I don't believe we will be "stuck" in a sphere of influence if we are to enter a treaty with TWP. As to TWP having no regards for Lazarene sovereignty, I don't believe Lazarus has historically given TWP any reason to care. Rather, the opposite. Yes, delegates change, but don't you think TWP will uphold it's alliances? 

You make a valid point. Personally, I'm of the opinion that more alliances are a good thing, provided they don't come into conflict with our existing values. Which I don't see TWP currently do.

[treadwellia]

All right, folks. Any further discussion, or are we all ready to go for a potential vote on this draft going live? Let me know.

[treadwellia]

All right. Looking like I need McChimp to push through a vote on this as-is. If folks go for it, cool; I'll let 'the others know If not, then I suppose I can reopen discussions about potential fixes or adjustments.

[Cormac]

Seconding the motion to vote, if that's a thing that needs to happen.