<![CDATA[Forums - Tabled Discussions and Proposals]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/ Sun, 05 Apr 2026 23:02:51 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[Repeal: “Condemn The Pacific” Discussion]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1891 Wed, 26 May 2021 02:58:47 +0000 New Rogernomics]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1891 Repeal: “Condemn The Pacific” Discussion

I've been reviewing the text of the repeal, it reads sort of problematic: https://www.nationstates.net/page=sc

We have our initial demands: https://nslazarus.com/showthread.php?tid...87#pid4587
Quote:Furthermore, we intend to take more aggressive action against the NPO unless the following demands are met:
  • Permanent removal from office in the NPO of the leaders of the Lazarus Task Force, inclusive of Aleisyr, Pergamon, Svezjacael, Stujenske, and Feux
  • Other suspicious or undesirable nations known to the NPO to be resident in Lazarus or any off-site property are to be immediately reported to Lazarene regional staff
  • The NPO may not deploy operations within our borders, unless future Lazarene policy allows support of a legal delegacy transition
  • An official apology from the NPO for its recently revealed offences against Lazarus and other regions

[Image: wVCoBus.png]
This is the current Delegate of The Pacific.

If I was to break this down and look through the arguments for inconsistencies:
 
Quote:Noting that while Feux and A mean old man did infiltrate Lazarus and Osiris through puppet nations, these nations were not "notable members of the New Pacific Order" at the time of said infiltration(s), nor were they members of the NPO at all during that time period;

Unlike what the text claims, Feux was a prominent member of the NPO as far as Lazarus is concerned, and there is clear historical justification to argue this given Feux was made a key member of the New Pacific Order delegation to the Constitutional Convention made to resolve the Lazarus situation post Imki coming into the Delegacy. It does not matter whether they were "notable" either, as that is still covered under abetting a crime through inaction.

I have just checked the wayback machine and the claim made is untrue that Feux was never a member of The Pacific prior to the alleged crimes.

[Image: KDgGsf6.png]

We can infer from that alone that Feux was at least a resident in the NPO basically three months concurrently, if not a citizen of the NPO from 2014, and people could speculate on-wards from there.

You can see yourself here by looking in the 2014 snapshots: https://web.archive.org/web/201404010000...ation=feux

Whether the NPO Wiki is accurate or not, this seems to contradict that as well, several times: https://wiki.npowned.net/view/History_of...tionStates
Quote:[...]The initial burst of activity had begun to taper off slightly again when it came to pass that A Mean Old Man and Feux ascended to the Senate. Shortly after this, Milograd followed after his coup of The South Pacific which had been themed on a socialist republic[10]. Milograd was not removed from the region despite claims of intent to punish him, but instead made the head of Foreign Affairs. Not long after this, he, too, joined Krulltopia's Senate.
Quote:[...]This left Feux, A Mean Old Man, Milograd, and Karpathos with a large amount of control of the Pacific Senate. None of them were considered for the position of Regent, however, that instead falling to Elegarth and Rothinzil. Both continued the trend of refusing to take the seat from Krulltopia, and his other options for succession were deemed unwelcome. The New Pacific Order by 2014 had become characterized by contributions from long-term members such as Aleisyr, Foreign Affairs moves by Elegarth, and ambitious seeking of the Delegacy by Feux. However, activity had begun to siphon away from The Pacific after Feux couped Lazarus and took control of the region from the Imperialists.

Going back to the text itself now...
 
Quote:Dismissing claims that these infiltrations constituted intelligence operations conducted by the NPO, due to a lack of evidence to demonstrate the NPO knew of these infiltrations while they were ongoing;

 It does not matter for point of argument, whether the infiltration(s) occurred continuously, the fact that these infiltration(s) occurred at all seems to be problem here, so it seems a bit strange to argue here that this is a justification for a repeal, and further to somewhat muddy whether they occurred.
 
Quote:Acknowledging that Aleisyr and Pergamon, at the time the nations chiefly responsible for governing the Pacific, later became aware of these infiltrations but allowed these nations membership and advancement in the NPO, without informing either Lazarus or Osiris of the infiltrations, but that their reprehensible silence and inaction do not prove the aforementioned claims;

This passage seems a bit of a mess, as it is arguing simultaneously that the infiltration(s) may have occurred, but then goes on to argue that just because NPO did not take action against them does not mean they are liable for their actions. When those activities were covered up it was a crime in itself, and certainly Lazarus could hold the NPO accountable for not informing Lazarus of a clear violation of their sovereignty AKA abetting a crime through inaction. The NPO does not have to be guilty of the initial crime, it can still be liable on basis not informing relevant authorities.

The rest of it is irrelevant, at least as far as Lazarus is concerned, as Lazarus did not support the Nationstates "consensus" in foreign policy statements or by a vote of the assembly, that is argued exists in the text.

I could see an argument for Lazarus voting against not on basis of whether the NPO were adequately reformed/changed, but because of the nature/statements of the repeal text.]]> Repeal: “Condemn The Pacific” Discussion

I've been reviewing the text of the repeal, it reads sort of problematic: https://www.nationstates.net/page=sc

We have our initial demands: https://nslazarus.com/showthread.php?tid...87#pid4587
Quote:Furthermore, we intend to take more aggressive action against the NPO unless the following demands are met:
  • Permanent removal from office in the NPO of the leaders of the Lazarus Task Force, inclusive of Aleisyr, Pergamon, Svezjacael, Stujenske, and Feux
  • Other suspicious or undesirable nations known to the NPO to be resident in Lazarus or any off-site property are to be immediately reported to Lazarene regional staff
  • The NPO may not deploy operations within our borders, unless future Lazarene policy allows support of a legal delegacy transition
  • An official apology from the NPO for its recently revealed offences against Lazarus and other regions

[Image: wVCoBus.png]
This is the current Delegate of The Pacific.

If I was to break this down and look through the arguments for inconsistencies:
 
Quote:Noting that while Feux and A mean old man did infiltrate Lazarus and Osiris through puppet nations, these nations were not "notable members of the New Pacific Order" at the time of said infiltration(s), nor were they members of the NPO at all during that time period;

Unlike what the text claims, Feux was a prominent member of the NPO as far as Lazarus is concerned, and there is clear historical justification to argue this given Feux was made a key member of the New Pacific Order delegation to the Constitutional Convention made to resolve the Lazarus situation post Imki coming into the Delegacy. It does not matter whether they were "notable" either, as that is still covered under abetting a crime through inaction.

I have just checked the wayback machine and the claim made is untrue that Feux was never a member of The Pacific prior to the alleged crimes.

[Image: KDgGsf6.png]

We can infer from that alone that Feux was at least a resident in the NPO basically three months concurrently, if not a citizen of the NPO from 2014, and people could speculate on-wards from there.

You can see yourself here by looking in the 2014 snapshots: https://web.archive.org/web/201404010000...ation=feux

Whether the NPO Wiki is accurate or not, this seems to contradict that as well, several times: https://wiki.npowned.net/view/History_of...tionStates
Quote:[...]The initial burst of activity had begun to taper off slightly again when it came to pass that A Mean Old Man and Feux ascended to the Senate. Shortly after this, Milograd followed after his coup of The South Pacific which had been themed on a socialist republic[10]. Milograd was not removed from the region despite claims of intent to punish him, but instead made the head of Foreign Affairs. Not long after this, he, too, joined Krulltopia's Senate.
Quote:[...]This left Feux, A Mean Old Man, Milograd, and Karpathos with a large amount of control of the Pacific Senate. None of them were considered for the position of Regent, however, that instead falling to Elegarth and Rothinzil. Both continued the trend of refusing to take the seat from Krulltopia, and his other options for succession were deemed unwelcome. The New Pacific Order by 2014 had become characterized by contributions from long-term members such as Aleisyr, Foreign Affairs moves by Elegarth, and ambitious seeking of the Delegacy by Feux. However, activity had begun to siphon away from The Pacific after Feux couped Lazarus and took control of the region from the Imperialists.

Going back to the text itself now...
 
Quote:Dismissing claims that these infiltrations constituted intelligence operations conducted by the NPO, due to a lack of evidence to demonstrate the NPO knew of these infiltrations while they were ongoing;

 It does not matter for point of argument, whether the infiltration(s) occurred continuously, the fact that these infiltration(s) occurred at all seems to be problem here, so it seems a bit strange to argue here that this is a justification for a repeal, and further to somewhat muddy whether they occurred.
 
Quote:Acknowledging that Aleisyr and Pergamon, at the time the nations chiefly responsible for governing the Pacific, later became aware of these infiltrations but allowed these nations membership and advancement in the NPO, without informing either Lazarus or Osiris of the infiltrations, but that their reprehensible silence and inaction do not prove the aforementioned claims;

This passage seems a bit of a mess, as it is arguing simultaneously that the infiltration(s) may have occurred, but then goes on to argue that just because NPO did not take action against them does not mean they are liable for their actions. When those activities were covered up it was a crime in itself, and certainly Lazarus could hold the NPO accountable for not informing Lazarus of a clear violation of their sovereignty AKA abetting a crime through inaction. The NPO does not have to be guilty of the initial crime, it can still be liable on basis not informing relevant authorities.

The rest of it is irrelevant, at least as far as Lazarus is concerned, as Lazarus did not support the Nationstates "consensus" in foreign policy statements or by a vote of the assembly, that is argued exists in the text.

I could see an argument for Lazarus voting against not on basis of whether the NPO were adequately reformed/changed, but because of the nature/statements of the repeal text.]]> <![CDATA[Mzeusia and Snoodum Citizenship Application]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1595 Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:32:54 +0000 New Rogernomics]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1595 Mzeusia and Snoodum Citizenship Application

Firstly, you may have noticed that Snoodum recently had their citizenship application declined. This application was declined because Mzeusia's last used IP was identical to the registration and posting IP of Snoodum.

After this was discovered, Mzeusia was informed that they had been reported to the NS moderators, as a possible WA Multier, and the nation Mzeusia resigned from the WA before any ruling could be reached by the NS moderators. This could be taken as further evidence of guilt or admission they were in the wrong.

Secondly, there are other forms of evidence to be considered, such as posting and being on exactly at the same time, possible similar language usage, and Mzeusia and Snoodum being in regular contact with each other.

So ultimately an explanation needs to be given as to why this is the case, ideally before any decision is made to refer it to a CLS vote or a process by another body.]]> Mzeusia and Snoodum Citizenship Application

Firstly, you may have noticed that Snoodum recently had their citizenship application declined. This application was declined because Mzeusia's last used IP was identical to the registration and posting IP of Snoodum.

After this was discovered, Mzeusia was informed that they had been reported to the NS moderators, as a possible WA Multier, and the nation Mzeusia resigned from the WA before any ruling could be reached by the NS moderators. This could be taken as further evidence of guilt or admission they were in the wrong.

Secondly, there are other forms of evidence to be considered, such as posting and being on exactly at the same time, possible similar language usage, and Mzeusia and Snoodum being in regular contact with each other.

So ultimately an explanation needs to be given as to why this is the case, ideally before any decision is made to refer it to a CLS vote or a process by another body.]]> <![CDATA[Cabinet Deputy Elections Amendment]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1590 Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:58:24 +0000 New Rogernomics]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1590 Quote:
Cabinet Deputy Elections Amendment (August 2020)
 
Proposed by: @"New Rogernomics"

Section 1. Amendment of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus

(1) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus reads:

[Table][cell]
Establishment of the Cabinet

(4) The Prime Minister will set the course of the Cabinet with such ministries, programs, and activities as they determine are beneficial for Lazarus.

(5) The Prime Minister may issue executive directives to set public policy for executive ministries, programs, and activities. Such directives will remain in effect unless rescinded by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister. Such directives may also be amended by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister.

(6) The Prime Minister may appoint Cabinet Ministers to assist with executive ministries, programs and activities, and must fill any ministries mandated by law. Appointment of Cabinet Ministers will be subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Assembly.

(7) Cabinet Ministers will serve until the end of the Prime Minister's term or until resignation, removal from office by the Assembly or the Prime Minister, or automatic removal from office.

(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.
[/cell][/table]

(2) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus will be amended to include:

[Table][cell]
(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment, election, and removal of Cabinet deputies.
(9) At least one Cabinet Deputy shall be elected per ministry, with their number and responsibilities at the discretion of the Prime Minister.
(10) Cabinet Deputy elections will be held if a vacancy should exist.
[/cell][/table] Edit: Crossed out 9 and 10.]]> Quote:
Cabinet Deputy Elections Amendment (August 2020)
 
Proposed by: @"New Rogernomics"

Section 1. Amendment of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus

(1) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus reads:

[Table][cell]
Establishment of the Cabinet

(4) The Prime Minister will set the course of the Cabinet with such ministries, programs, and activities as they determine are beneficial for Lazarus.

(5) The Prime Minister may issue executive directives to set public policy for executive ministries, programs, and activities. Such directives will remain in effect unless rescinded by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister. Such directives may also be amended by the Prime Minister who issued them or a subsequent Prime Minister.

(6) The Prime Minister may appoint Cabinet Ministers to assist with executive ministries, programs and activities, and must fill any ministries mandated by law. Appointment of Cabinet Ministers will be subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Assembly.

(7) Cabinet Ministers will serve until the end of the Prime Minister's term or until resignation, removal from office by the Assembly or the Prime Minister, or automatic removal from office.

(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment and removal of Cabinet deputies.
[/cell][/table]

(2) The relevant section of Article IV. of the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus will be amended to include:

[Table][cell]
(8) The Prime Minister may provide for the appointment, election, and removal of Cabinet deputies.
(9) At least one Cabinet Deputy shall be elected per ministry, with their number and responsibilities at the discretion of the Prime Minister.
(10) Cabinet Deputy elections will be held if a vacancy should exist.
[/cell][/table] Edit: Crossed out 9 and 10.]]> <![CDATA[Permanent Unalignment]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1554 Wed, 08 Jul 2020 18:02:21 +0000 Ryccia]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=1554
Quote:(1) The Lazarene Regional Guard will be the sole military force of Lazarus, neutral in alignment. The alignment of the Lazarene Regional Guard cannot be altered without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. This sub-section of this document cannot be amended without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. Such a total and unanimous vote requires unanimous consent from the Assembly. Abstaining votes in such a total and unanimous vote to amend this sub-section shall be counted as "Nay". No other sub-section or section in this document can contradict this one.
...
(3) The Regional Guard may only engage in the following types of operations:

a. Defense of Lazarus;
b. Defense of Lazarus' treaty allies, if mandated by treaty terms;
c. Invasion of regions upon which Lazarus has declared war, and defense of other regions against their military forces;
d. Defense of other Feeders and Sinkers at the request of their legitimate governments;
e. Assistance in other regions' legal Delegate transitions at the request of their legitimate governments;
f. Offensive or defensive training operations in game-created Warzone regions;
g. Invasion of fascist regions and defense of regions against fascist military forces;
h. Invasion of regions which pose a substantial threat to the out-of-character security or safety of NationStates players, and defense of regions against forces which pose such a threat.

(4) The Assembly may enact a resolution empowering the Regional Guard to invade a region that is the ally or protectorate of a region upon which Lazarus has declared war. Such a resolution may be approved or rescinded by two-thirds vote of the Assembly.

For the Twelfth Mandate:
Quote:...
X. Regarding the Region's Military Alignment

(1) Lazarus shall have no official military alignment or ideology of any kind, and thus shall remain neutral. The alignment of the Lazarene Regional Guard or of Lazarus proper cannot be altered without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. This sub-section of this document cannot be amended without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. Such a total and unanimous vote requires unanimous consent from the Assembly. Abstaining votes in such a total and unanimous vote to amend this sub-section shall be counted as "Nay". No other sub-section or section in this document can contradict this one.

This is an idea to be debated. I see Permanent Neutrality as a way to keep the military and the region safe from the chaos and discord caused by prior conflicts over R/D whilst giving the Guard the ability to do as it wishes.]]>
Quote:(1) The Lazarene Regional Guard will be the sole military force of Lazarus, neutral in alignment. The alignment of the Lazarene Regional Guard cannot be altered without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. This sub-section of this document cannot be amended without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. Such a total and unanimous vote requires unanimous consent from the Assembly. Abstaining votes in such a total and unanimous vote to amend this sub-section shall be counted as "Nay". No other sub-section or section in this document can contradict this one.
...
(3) The Regional Guard may only engage in the following types of operations:

a. Defense of Lazarus;
b. Defense of Lazarus' treaty allies, if mandated by treaty terms;
c. Invasion of regions upon which Lazarus has declared war, and defense of other regions against their military forces;
d. Defense of other Feeders and Sinkers at the request of their legitimate governments;
e. Assistance in other regions' legal Delegate transitions at the request of their legitimate governments;
f. Offensive or defensive training operations in game-created Warzone regions;
g. Invasion of fascist regions and defense of regions against fascist military forces;
h. Invasion of regions which pose a substantial threat to the out-of-character security or safety of NationStates players, and defense of regions against forces which pose such a threat.

(4) The Assembly may enact a resolution empowering the Regional Guard to invade a region that is the ally or protectorate of a region upon which Lazarus has declared war. Such a resolution may be approved or rescinded by two-thirds vote of the Assembly.

For the Twelfth Mandate:
Quote:...
X. Regarding the Region's Military Alignment

(1) Lazarus shall have no official military alignment or ideology of any kind, and thus shall remain neutral. The alignment of the Lazarene Regional Guard or of Lazarus proper cannot be altered without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. This sub-section of this document cannot be amended without a total and unanimous vote by the Assembly. Such a total and unanimous vote requires unanimous consent from the Assembly. Abstaining votes in such a total and unanimous vote to amend this sub-section shall be counted as "Nay". No other sub-section or section in this document can contradict this one.

This is an idea to be debated. I see Permanent Neutrality as a way to keep the military and the region safe from the chaos and discord caused by prior conflicts over R/D whilst giving the Guard the ability to do as it wishes.]]> <![CDATA[[Passed] Constitutional Resolution to Clarify Continuity with Past Governments]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=155 Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:10:08 +0000 Cormac]]> https://nslazarus.com/old_forum/showthread.php?tid=155
The timing allotted for this vote is five days. Voting will end on Friday, August 3 at 4:10 p.m. EDT.

The discussion thread is here.
Quote:
Constitutional Resolution to Clarify Continuity with Past Governments
 
Proposed by: Cormac

Whereas there has been some question as to whether the government established under Mandate 12 is a continuation or legal successor to the Celestial Union of Lazarus, the Undead Dominion of Lazarus, the Dominion of Lazarus, or the Khanate of Lazarus;

Whereas Mandate 12 does not include any provision regarding continuity with prior governments; and

Whereas it is important for the purpose of determining the status of laws established under prior governments, particularly the status of treaties, whether there is continuity between any of those prior governments and the government established under Mandate 12;

Therefore, the Assembly of Lazarus hereby resolves, as a matter of constitutional authority and as empowered by Article I, Section 10 of Mandate 12, as follows:

(1) The government established under Mandate 12, and any legal successor government, is not a continuation of or legal successor to any prior government of Lazarus.

(2) The government established under Mandate 12, and any legal successor government, is not bound by any law, treaty, or policy of any kind established under any prior government of Lazarus, and such laws, treaties, and policies have no legal effect whatsoever under Mandate 12.

(3) The government established under Mandate 12 takes no position on the legitimacy of any prior government of Lazarus.
]]>
The timing allotted for this vote is five days. Voting will end on Friday, August 3 at 4:10 p.m. EDT.

The discussion thread is here.
Quote:
Constitutional Resolution to Clarify Continuity with Past Governments
 
Proposed by: Cormac

Whereas there has been some question as to whether the government established under Mandate 12 is a continuation or legal successor to the Celestial Union of Lazarus, the Undead Dominion of Lazarus, the Dominion of Lazarus, or the Khanate of Lazarus;

Whereas Mandate 12 does not include any provision regarding continuity with prior governments; and

Whereas it is important for the purpose of determining the status of laws established under prior governments, particularly the status of treaties, whether there is continuity between any of those prior governments and the government established under Mandate 12;

Therefore, the Assembly of Lazarus hereby resolves, as a matter of constitutional authority and as empowered by Article I, Section 10 of Mandate 12, as follows:

(1) The government established under Mandate 12, and any legal successor government, is not a continuation of or legal successor to any prior government of Lazarus.

(2) The government established under Mandate 12, and any legal successor government, is not bound by any law, treaty, or policy of any kind established under any prior government of Lazarus, and such laws, treaties, and policies have no legal effect whatsoever under Mandate 12.

(3) The government established under Mandate 12 takes no position on the legitimacy of any prior government of Lazarus.
]]>