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[Proposal] Treaty of the Sun - Imkihca - 01-16-2019
![[Image: EpBBy4T.png]](https://i.imgur.com/EpBBy4T.png)
Treaty with Osiris.
Dear Citizens, our Foreign Affairs team have been hard at work and it is with great pleasure I come to you now with the fruits of their labour!
Osiris are, I believe, the perfect choice for our first treaty. Our sister Sinker region shares a great deal in common with us from the basics of how our regions function in game to the build of our constitutions. They too have been through troubled times, grown stronger through adversity, and even now we work together to fight our shared foe in the war against the NPO.
For your consideration and approval, Speaker, by the power vested in me by Article I.4 of Mandate 12, I hereby request that the Assembly debate and vote on the Treaty of the Sun.
Special thanks to Minister Imaginary, Deputy Minister Ryccia and the officials over in Osiris for working so hard and making this possible!
Osiris are, I believe, the perfect choice for our first treaty. Our sister Sinker region shares a great deal in common with us from the basics of how our regions function in game to the build of our constitutions. They too have been through troubled times, grown stronger through adversity, and even now we work together to fight our shared foe in the war against the NPO.
For your consideration and approval, Speaker, by the power vested in me by Article I.4 of Mandate 12, I hereby request that the Assembly debate and vote on the Treaty of the Sun.
Special thanks to Minister Imaginary, Deputy Minister Ryccia and the officials over in Osiris for working so hard and making this possible!
Quote:Article 1: Recognition
Treaty of the Sun
A treaty to define the fraternal and amiable form of the relationship between the regions of Lazarus and Osiris.
(1) The Osiris Fraternal Order and its legal successors shall recognize the government established by the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus and any of its legal successors as the legitimate government of the region of Lazarus.
(2) The government established by the Twelfth Mandate of Lazarus and its legal successors shall recognize the Osiris Fraternal Order and any of its legal successors as the legitimate government of the region of Osiris.
(3) Should the government of a signatory voluntarily disband while in exile, the other is freed from the commitments of Article 1, Sections 1 and 2. Additionally, if the new government refuses to recognize this treaty, it is automatically dissolved.
Article 2: Pact of Non-Aggression
(1) Both signatories hereby pledge to not invade, raid, or otherwise attack the other’s region or any possessions they may have, nor aid any faction, government, or party to do so.
(2) Both signatories agree that the deployment of military forces on the opposite side of the other in another region that is not the possession of either does not constitute aggression against either of the signatories.
(3) If planned and agreed upon by the governments and military forces of both signatories, both military forces may engage in offensive raiding or defending action against each other for training purposes, or for their mutual pleasure.
Article 3: Mutual Defense
(1) Both signatories pledge to defend one another militarily against any invasions or similar crises they may suffer.
(2) Both signatories pledge to send any military forces they possess at the request of the other in order to facilitate legitimate delegacy transitions, or in cases of emergency.
(3) Both signatories agree that they shall not aid an enemy at war with the other. If a region declares war on one of these signatories, the other may only choose to stay neutral or aid the signatory in question.
(4) If one of the signatories does not possess any military forces and is called upon the other by the provisions set in Article 3, Sections 1 to 3, they must assemble a military force at the earliest opportunity.
Article 4: Protection Against Infiltration
(1) Both signatories pledge to inform the other’s government and any relevant intelligence services of any evidence they may have of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other. They shall also inform the other of any conspiracies to commit any crimes in the other’s jurisdictions.
(2) Both signatories pledge to cooperate on matters of intelligence and security.
(3) Both signatories pledge to punish any of their citizens convicted by the other of acting against the other signatory through espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy. They may choose to hold a trial for any of these crimes, or punish the individuals outright. In the latter case, both governments must negotiate any punishments to be given to the individuals in question.
(4) Both signatories shall condemn any acts of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other if the target of these acts confirm it.
(5) Both signatories pledge to never commit acts of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other, or aid any faction, government, or party to do so.
(6) If the government of any of the two signatories fail to fulfill the obligations of Article 4, Sections 1 to 5, they must formally and publicly apologize for this.
Article 5: Cultural Cooperation
(1) The relevant cultural authorities of both signatories shall actively cooperate on matters of culture, which may include festivals, games, roleplays, mafia, newspapers, radio shows, podcasts, graphic design, and others. At least one of these must be done annually as a bilateral event, unless in times of emergency. Furthermore, the relevant cultural authorities of both signatories are encouraged to do more than the required one bilateral event per year.
(2) The relevant cultural authorities of both signatories are encouraged to plan and cooperate on a festival celebrating the passage of this treaty.
(3) Citizens of Lazarus and Osiris are welcome to visit the other’s region and engage in events of cultural significance and to have fun with the other’s community.
Article 6: Provisions of Ratification, Amendment and Repeal
(1) Both signatories shall activate their legal mechanisms relevant to ratify a treaty after they agree to do so.
(2) If a signatory wishes to amend this document, they must negotiate with the other to do so. After this, the same legal mechanisms in each region relevant to ratify a treaty shall be activated to adopt these agreed amendments. If one region refuses these amendments, they are to not be adopted.
(3) If a signatory wishes to dissolve this treaty, they must notify, by any means of communication available and possible, their intention to dissolve said treaty to the other. After this, the legal mechanisms relevant to dissolve a treaty shall be activated in the region of the requesting signatory.
(4) The signatories may dissolve this treaty by mutual consent. The legal mechanisms relevant to dissolve a treaty must be activated, and if at least one region decides to repeal, the treaty is declared null and void with immediate effect.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - Roavin - 01-16-2019
Only thing I'd note: 4.3 is worded in an awkward manner.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - joWhatup - 01-16-2019
A good treaty. Congrats to our FA team! I am glad to see us getting closer with our sister sinker Osiris.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - Atlantica - 01-16-2019
I am fully supportive of this treaty, and intend to vote to ratify it when the time comes. That being said, however, I'm concerned that §2.3 of the Treaty, by proscribing mutual military operations, could potentially undermine the neutral foundation of the Lazarene Regional Guard as prescribed in §1.1 and §2.3 of the Lazarene Regional Guard. To that effect, I'd urge the Lazarene Government to consider approaching the Osiran Government about slightly amending §2.3 to say something to the effect of: "Notwithstanding both regions' domestic and constitutional legislation, and if planned and agreed upon by the governments and militaries of both signatories..."
RE: Treaty of the Sun - Cormac - 01-16-2019
Roavin;5427 Wrote:Only thing I'd note: 4.3 is worded in an awkward manner.I support this treaty overall, but I can't support 4(3) regardless of its wording. The Pan-Sinker Security Pact had provisions that required the other signatories to take legal action against their citizens for participating in coups against the other signatories, and those provisions were ultimately what led to the unraveling of the PSSP and a lot of animosity between Balder and Osiris on the one hand and Lazarus and the Rejected Realms on the other. Since then, I've consistently opposed any provisions like those, because it's my firm belief a community will simply end a treaty before they will get rid of community members they like and value for something they did to another region, even an ally. I think that's asking too much. So I am against 4(3), and I won't be able to vote for this treaty if that wording remains in it. I think a provision like 4(3) is a poison pill (even if unintentional, as I'm sure was the case here) that seals the eventual destruction of an alliance from the beginning. I hope we'll just decide to remove that wording, because otherwise I have no issues.
Atlantica;5430 Wrote:I am fully supportive of this treaty, and intend to vote to ratify it when the time comes. That being said, however, I'm concerned that §2.3 of the Treaty, by proscribing mutual military operations, could potentially undermine the neutral foundation of the Lazarene Regional Guard as prescribed in §1.1 and §2.3 of the Lazarene Regional Guard. To that effect, I'd urge the Lazarene Government to consider approaching the Osiran Government about slightly amending §2.3 to say something to the effect of: "Notwithstanding both regions' domestic and constitutional legislation, and if planned and agreed upon by the governments and militaries of both signatories..."I don't think this is actually an issue, though I appreciate and understand the desire for an abundance of caution. The treaty's wording says such operations must be "planned and agreed upon by the governments and military forces of both signatories" -- our government and military force can't plan and agree upon a military operation that violates the Charter of the Lazarene Regional Guard. So since our government and military force literally can't plan and agree upon an illegal military operation, there can never be a case that there is a military operation under this treaty that would contradict the law.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - joWhatup - 01-16-2019
Cormac;5431 Wrote:Emm... Any treatied ally which doesn't get rid of people working against us isn't worth a treaty anyway.Roavin;5427 Wrote:Only thing I'd note: 4.3 is worded in an awkward manner.I support this treaty overall, but I can't support 4(3) regardless of its wording. The Pan-Sinker Security Pact had provisions that required the other signatories to take legal action against their citizens for participating in coups against the other signatories, and those provisions were ultimately what led to the unraveling of the PSSP and a lot of animosity between Balder and Osiris on the one hand and Lazarus and the Rejected Realms on the other. Since then, I've consistently opposed any provisions like those, because it's my firm belief a community will simply end a treaty before they will get rid of community members they like and value for something they did to another region, even an ally. I think that's asking too much. So I am against 4(3), and I won't be able to vote for this treaty if that wording remains in it. I think a provision like 4(3) is a poison pill (even if unintentional, as I'm sure was the case here) that seals the eventual destruction of an alliance from the beginning. I hope we'll just decide to remove that wording, because otherwise I have no issues.
Atlantica;5430 Wrote:I am fully supportive of this treaty, and intend to vote to ratify it when the time comes. That being said, however, I'm concerned that §2.3 of the Treaty, by proscribing mutual military operations, could potentially undermine the neutral foundation of the Lazarene Regional Guard as prescribed in §1.1 and §2.3 of the Lazarene Regional Guard. To that effect, I'd urge the Lazarene Government to consider approaching the Osiran Government about slightly amending §2.3 to say something to the effect of: "Notwithstanding both regions' domestic and constitutional legislation, and if planned and agreed upon by the governments and militaries of both signatories..."What Cormac said. For this, our government would have to agree, and since we are neutral, we won't run offensive or defensive military operations against anything more then Warzones or Fascists.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - McChimp - 01-16-2019
I am very much in favour of a treaty with Osiris, though I am not sure about some of the specifics of this one.
Quote:Article 2: Pact of Non-Aggression
(1) Both signatories hereby pledge to not invade, raid, or otherwise attack the other’s region or any possessions they may have, nor aid any faction, government, or party to do so.
(2) Both signatories agree that the deployment of military forces on the opposite side of the other in another region that is not the possession of either does not constitute aggression against either of the signatories.
(3) If planned and agreed upon by the governments and military forces of both signatories, both military forces may engage in offensive raiding or defending action against each other for training purposes, or for their mutual pleasure.
This is contradictory with the Charter of the Lazarene Regional Guard (December 2018) 2:3.
Quote:Article 4: Protection Against Infiltration
(1) Both signatories pledge to inform the other’s government and any relevant intelligence services of any evidence they may have of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other. They shall also inform the other of any conspiracies to commit any crimes in the other’s jurisdictions.
(2) Both signatories pledge to cooperate on matters of intelligence and security.
(3) Both signatories pledge to punish any of their citizens convicted by the other of acting against the other signatory through espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy. They may choose to hold a trial for any of these crimes, or punish the individuals outright. In the latter case, both governments must negotiate any punishments to be given to the individuals in question.
(4) Both signatories shall condemn any acts of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other if the target of these acts confirm it.
(5) Both signatories pledge to never commit acts of espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy against the other, or aid any faction, government, or party to do so.
(6) If the government of any of the two signatories fail to fulfill the obligations of Article 4, Sections 1 to 5, they must formally and publicly apologize for this.
4:3 isn't binding seeing as no Lazarene punishment cannot be vetoed by our Delegate, so there is no circumstance in which we would be legally required to punish somebody. I am not sure whether treaties have the authority to permit people to be punished "outright", even if it doesn't grant this power to any specific official. Were it legally binding, it would be a violation of our regional sovereignty. Even leaving it at the Delegate's discretion creates a whole foreign mechanism by which the Delegate may eject citizens without check.
4:6 also seems unnecessary, though I suppose its inclusion does no harm. If either signatory has violated the other obligations of article four, all of which are less trivial then this one, and still aren't feeling apologetic then I doubt that they would feel compelled to obey this section.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - Legalist Zombal - 01-16-2019
So my main concerns here:
3:3 allows either side to stay neutral... this is kinda good and kinda bad. If Osiris ended up at war with some region, lets say TCB for example, we are not required to go and help them but ALSO if we ended up at war with somewhere like TCB then Osiris isnt required to fight with us. Of course this would be good as well since it would mean if we had a treaty with TCB and Osi/TCB went to war then we could stay out of it.
3:4 though.. it seems to make a demand. If Osiris is under threat and needs a certain number of endorsements then the treaty here demands we show up with at least that number or MAKE that number happen... which seems a bit strange to me
the military bits though... I think it may need rewording so that it is known all of them are merely requests that both govts can agree upon (So if Osiris wanted to do something with Lazarus and Jo made sure it didn't contradict the military laws then we can, but if it does contradict we can deny) and that we are only required to show up to aid them when they are under major threat. If someone was trying to Coup, this treaty states we must support the government under Altino or her legal successor and if we were under coup threat then Osiris would support Imki or her legal successor.)
I support this treaty overall though and I believe this alliance with Osiris will be of the best for Lazarus!
RE: Treaty of the Sun - New Rogernomics - 01-16-2019
Quote:(3) Both signatories pledge to punish any of their citizens convicted by the other of acting against the other signatory through espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy. They may choose to hold a trial for any of these crimes, or punish the individuals outright. In the latter case, both governments must negotiate any punishments to be given to the individuals in question.This could be an issue looking at it more closely. I think 'investigate' and 'censure' would be better language here.
Investigate, because it requires regions to investigate i.e. innocent till proven guilty and legal procedures of both regions are followed.
Censure because it can exclusively relate to positions and/or a condemnation of conduct i.e. a justification for removal from government positions and so on.
So perhaps?
Quote:(3) Both signatories pledge to investigate any of their citizens convicted by the other of acting against the other signatory through espionage, infiltration, subversion, manipulation, or conspiracy. They may choose to hold a trial for any crimes committed, or censure individuals outright. In the latter case, both governments must negotiate any censuring to be given to the individuals in question.
RE: Treaty of the Sun - Wycliffe - 01-16-2019
I agree with the rest that 4:3 is badly worded, and honestly should be chopped off. I support the rest of the treaty more or less as is, and I like that we've been able to work out an agreement with Osiris. But I don't think I would vote for it unless the section in question was removed. There are too many possible circumstances and hypotheticals that could make that clause do more harm than good in the end.