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+---- Thread: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) (/showthread.php?tid=1202)
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - New Rogernomics - 01-26-2020
There is a bit of overlap between what is in 3 and 5, so we might want a combined section 3:
Quote:(3) The Regional Guard may engage in the following types of operations without prior approval of the Delegate:
a. Defense of Lazarus;
b. Defense of Lazarus' treaty allies, if mandated by treaty terms;
c. Invasion of regions upon which Lazarus has declared war, and defense of other regions against their military forces;
d. Defense of other Feeders and Sinkers at the request of their legitimate governments;
e. Assistance in other regions' legal Delegate transitions at the request of their legitimate governments;
f. Offensive or defensive training operations in game-created Warzone regions;
g. Invasion of fascist regions and defense of regions against fascist military forces;
h. Invasion of regions which pose a substantial threat to the out-of-character security or safety of NationStates players, and defense of regions against forces which pose such a threat.
(4) The Assembly may enact a resolution empowering the Regional Guard to invade a region that is the ally or protectorate of a region upon which Lazarus has declared war. Such a resolution may be approved or rescinded by two-thirds vote of the Assembly.
(5) The Regional Guard may be empowered to engage in other military operations upon the approval of the Delegate so long as:
a. Operations do not involve raiding regions exceeding 20 nations,
b. Operations do not exceed 72 hours in duration,
c. The RMB, WFE and embassies of a region are restored at the end of an operation.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - McChimp - 01-26-2020
Wymondham;8193 Wrote:That is not at all what I'm doing McChimp. Am I not allowed to have views as a lazarene citizen? Or are you saying that because I serve in positions in other regions, like the other court justices,The assembly speaker and members of the govt, that it magically means my views are worth less as a citizen of Lazarus even when I am only asking for some decorum in this debate?
I am saying that as FA Minister for another region you ought to be mindful of contradicting that region except in private discussions within it. I would not go to Osiris and contradict Lazarene policy regarding the NPO, for example.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - joWhatup - 01-26-2020
McChimp;8195 Wrote:Wymondham;8193 Wrote:That is not at all what I'm doing McChimp. Am I not allowed to have views as a lazarene citizen? Or are you saying that because I serve in positions in other regions, like the other court justices,The assembly speaker and members of the govt, that it magically means my views are worth less as a citizen of Lazarus even when I am only asking for some decorum in this debate?
I am saying that as FA Minister for another region you ought to be mindful of contradicting that region except in private discussions within it. I would not go to Osiris and contradict Lazarene policy regarding the NPO, for example.
Did he contradict Osiran policy? He requested everyone to remain calm and not devolve into pointing fingers at those we disagree with and calling them subversives. I don’t think that’s called contradicting policy, I’d call it a responsible approach to things, a rather important trait in a Minister of Foreign Affairs.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - Wymondham - 01-26-2020
New Rogernomics;8194 Wrote:There is a bit of overlap between what is in 3 and 5, so we might want a combined section 3:Personally, I think a combined section 3 is the best way to go
Quote:(3) The Regional Guard may engage in the following types of operations without prior approval of the Delegate:
a. Defense of Lazarus;
b. Defense of Lazarus' treaty allies, if mandated by treaty terms;
c. Invasion of regions upon which Lazarus has declared war, and defense of other regions against their military forces;
d. Defense of other Feeders and Sinkers at the request of their legitimate governments;
e. Assistance in other regions' legal Delegate transitions at the request of their legitimate governments;
f. Offensive or defensive training operations in game-created Warzone regions;
g. Invasion of fascist regions and defense of regions against fascist military forces;
h. Invasion of regions which pose a substantial threat to the out-of-character security or safety of NationStates players, and defense of regions against forces which pose such a threat.
(4) The Assembly may enact a resolution empowering the Regional Guard to invade a region that is the ally or protectorate of a region upon which Lazarus has declared war. Such a resolution may be approved or rescinded by two-thirds vote of the Assembly.
(5) The Regional Guard may be empowered to engage in other military operations upon the approval of the Delegate so long as:
a. Operations do not involve raiding regions exceeding 20 nations,
b. Operations do not exceed 72 hours in duration,
c. The RMB, WFE and embassies of a region are restored at the end of an operation.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - New Rogernomics - 01-26-2020
Maybe something like:
Quote:(5) The procedure for empowering other military operations shall occur as follows:
a. The Minister of the Regional Guards shall submit an operation request,
b. Operational requests must comply with existing laws and treaties,
c. Operational requests must describe their purpose, inclusive of defending, raiding, or liberations,
d. Offensive operations shall be permitted in regions of X size/type,
e. Defensive operations shall be permitted in regions of X size/type,
f. Occupations or liberations shall also require approval from the Prime Minister/CLS/The Lizard King/Starfleet (???),
g. The Delegate shall decline or accept an operational request,
h. The Assembly may recall an operation by 50%+1 vote
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - Roavin - 01-27-2020
Let's take a step back here. Why do we have a Guard in the first place?
When Mandate 12 got started, Lazarus did not have a military, and intentionally so, because it did not want to present any opening again for imperialists, defenders, raiders, or francoists to step all over this region like has been done in the past decade. With no military there, there would be no incentive for malign actors to try to step in and sway whatever numbers Lazarus could bring (historically something between 3 and 15) to their purposes. If treaty obligations required us to defend an ally, we would form a temporary citizen militia to take care of those obligations, then dissolve it once the mission is over.
Then the whole NPO war started. Quite a few advised against it, and Imki gave all of us a very frank and honest view and prediction of what either choice would entail, but most just ignored all of that because the "NPO Delenda Est" propaganda from outside struck Lazarus deep.
So we made a guard, but as a compromise to those that were trying to keep Lazarus from getting into the same troubles again, the Guard was restricted. Those that wanted the war would get their military to wage war with, while those that were against the war got the assurance that the Guard wouldn't get to be involved in any of the R/D shenanigans that Lazarus was very deliberately keeping itself out of ever since Mandate 12.
Then in November we got the first attempt at opening up the Guard to be in R/D. One of the suggestions was even to make its alignment subject to the Prime Minister, as if to say to the world "HEY, SUBVERT US!". Fortunately, that failed, but at too narrow a margin for comfort. And here we are again.
So, to recap: Lazarus, starting with Mandate 12, intentionally did not have a military. That principle was broken due to outside propaganda that led to Lazarus declaring war, a war that more and more Lazarenes now want to get out of. Already we've gotten on the slippery slope, and now we're talking about letting go and sliding further down. Why? Why in [violet]'s name would we do this to ourselves?
The arguments that have been made for this proposal can be categorized in one of two ways.
First, it is argued that this improves regional activity. This is simply false. No full-featured region ever got a major source of activity from its military in the history of NationStates. I don't wish to ascribe malice to anybody that has brought this argument here, but please consider its origin: This false argument was invented by the Imperialist sphere and, together with the invention of the ill-named "Independence" alignment, used as a tool to politically drive regions to support their military operations. Lazarenes that were around in 2017 should find this familiar, as the same rhetoric was used back then by Funkadelia and Lamb Stone to argue for an Independent Lazarus just before they overthrew the CU.
Second, the argument is that the "Guard" is bored, or that the individuals within the Guard wish to do more. I'm principally sympathetic to that argument, but Lazarus has no restrictions on cross-membership with other regions bar the NPO. It would not be treasonous or even disagreeable to satisfy the itch for military gameplay through a dedicated R/D region while keeping Lazarus as your home, and in fact many prominent Lazarenes already do this very thing.
Neither of these arguments postulate any non-negligible benefit to the region as a whole.
My fellow Shareholders, the dam is damaged already. Do your duty and don't let it break open even further.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - joWhatup - 01-27-2020
Roavin;8200 Wrote:Then the whole NPO war started. Quite a few advised against it, and Imki gave all of us a very frank and honest view and prediction of what either choice would entail, but most just ignored all of that because the "NPO Delenda Est" propaganda from outside struck Lazarus deep.Quite a few, Roavin? You mean you, Arlo and Guinness Freaks.
Quote:So we made a guard, but as a compromise to those that were trying to keep Lazarus from getting into the same troubles again, the Guard was restricted. Those that wanted the war would get their military to wage war with, while those that were against the war got the assurance that the Guard wouldn't get to be involved in any of the R/D shenanigans that Lazarus was very deliberately keeping itself out of ever since Mandate 12.Personally, I was never a fan of democracy in the first place - the Prime Minister being able to utilise the Guard for the agenda they were elected to execute, though, isn't that weird an idea, although I don't disagree it could be misused.
Then in November we got the first attempt at opening up the Guard to be in R/D. One of the suggestions was even to make its alignment subject to the Prime Minister, as if to say to the world "HEY, SUBVERT US!". Fortunately, that failed, but at too narrow a margin for comfort. And here we are again.
Quote:So, to recap: Lazarus, starting with Mandate 12, intentionally did not have a military. That principle was broken due to outside propaganda that led to Lazarus declaring war, a war that more and more Lazarenes now want to get out of. Already we've gotten on the slippery slope, and now we're talking about letting go and sliding further down. Why? Why in [violet]'s name would we do this to ourselves?You seem to completely ignore what the NPO was attempting to do and the reasons we declared war. You did that during the war, and that trend still continues.
In regards to your concerns about people messing with us or why we believe this would help us, I agree with "Assholes will be assholes" and your reasoning of "Activity. Excitement", as you have said yourself.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - Debussy - 01-27-2020
Quote:Second, the argument is that the "Guard" is bored, or that the individuals within the Guard wish to do more. I'm principally sympathetic to that argument, but Lazarus has no restrictions on cross-membership with other regions bar the NPO. It would not be treasonous or even disagreeable to satisfy the itch for military gameplay through a dedicated R/D region while keeping Lazarus as your home, and in fact many prominent Lazarenes already do this very thing.
The way Jo's and Wymondham's cross-membership in dedicated R/D regions has been pointed out would make people think its very disagreeable. It hasn't made me want to open that door. I would rather do what I can at home.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - McChimp - 01-27-2020
Debussy;8202 Wrote:The way Jo's and Wymondham's cross-membership in dedicated R/D regions has been pointed out would make people think its very disagreeable. I hasn't made me want to open that door.
I haven't and would never insinuate that Wymondham or any Osiran would subvert Lazarus. Jo's cross membership isn't the issue, pursuing the goals of one organisation at the expense of the other is. I myself was a member of both TBH and Lazarus for a long time.
RE: Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020) Discussion - Debussy - 01-27-2020
I deliberately used the word disagreeable because I did not want to make a claim of treason or subversion. I am not insinuating you did that either. I am saying problems can arise, such as Wymondham's responsibility as an Osiran, or Jo's as a Khan, as you pointed out. From my perspective, it seems better to avoid the entanglement.