Lazarene Regional Guard Amendment (2020)

[joWhatup]

Although I'm not expressing an opinion on this until voting. Perhaps we can all maybe chill. I though we were meant to have moved on from calling people who disagree with us foreign subversives

Sure, we could pussyfoot around the fact that JoWhatup is the Khan of a raider org that plastered their flag on this region and proclaimed a raider paradise not two years ago.

Maybe we can set aside the fact that he leads an organisation that our sister sinker and ally Osiris-who you are supposed to represent as a Vizier-recently proscribed for being subversives.

Perhaps we should ignore the lip service he gave Scardino of East Pacifican infamy during each and every stage of his recent coup attempt.


Or maybe it'd be nice if the people who support this bill took even a cursory glance at who they're aligning themselves with and didn't make it so easy for him to drag this place back into the gutter.

Even nicer it would be if our Minister of Foreign Affairs would show that he's capable of a calm, reasoned response, backed by evidence, and would actually criticise the proposal much rather than accuse whoever disagrees with him of acting in the interests of foreign regions. We can all dream, I suppose.

I will, once again, refer you to the courts if you believe I'm serving any foreign interests and am undermining the region. Until you do, though, I have no reason to get into a petty fight.

 

[McChimp]

Even nicer it would be if our Minister of Foreign Affairs would show that he's capable of a calm, reasoned response, backed by evidence, and would actually criticise the proposal much rather than accuse whoever disagrees with him of acting in the interests of foreign regions. We can all dream, I suppose.

I will, once again, refer you to the courts if you believe I'm serving any foreign interests and am undermining the region. Until you do, though, I have no reason to get into a petty fight.

I have already argued reasonably against this proposal. I spent a great deal of time doing so the last time it was proposed and it hasn't changed since then. You should remember this, since it wasn't at all long ago. Having to do so again so soon is vexatious.

I haven't taken this to court because I'm not accusing you of a crime. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed that you have done any of the things listed in our criminal code.

 

[joWhatup]

I haven't taken this to court because I'm not accusing you of a crime. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed that you have done any of the things listed in our criminal code.

So you're basically just bringing this up to score cheap political points? Classy. Continue with it if you so please - I do not care to defend against baseless accusations and cheap shots. Thank you for the honest response.

As for the proposal... Personally, I'd prefer to see the Prime Minister appoint the Military commander - if we want to go through with our democratic approach, we ought to ensure the military is able to be used as a foreign policy tool by the person who is in charge of the Executive.

 

[McChimp]

McChimp, I'm not talking in this thread as Vizier of FA in Osiris anymore than I am as NSToday PR Director of a Thalassian minister. I am talking in this thread as a Lazarene citizen. In my roles I represent the government's view of things as I am always bound by collective responsibility.

You're putting on a mask and telling me one thing then taking it off and telling me another. Just because you're not wearing your mask anymore doesn't mean you're not contradicting what you said and thereby undermining your government's position.


This constitution was meant to represent a break from the LWU raider dictatorship that preceeded it first and foremost. What represented a break from r/d mudslinging was the absence of r/d from the region, the neutrality that this bill seeks to remove.

If you don't want r/d mudslinging then maybe you should stop trying to bring r/d back.

 

[joWhatup]

If you don't want r/d mudslinging then maybe you should stop trying to bring r/d back.

I will point out that any R/Ders that responded in this thread have been reasonable and have not been mudslinging or accusing their R/D opponents (nor those who oppose their view on this amendment) of working for foreign regions intend on pursuing foreign interests in the region.

 

[McChimp]

So you're basically just bringing this up to score cheap political points? Classy. Continue with it if you so please - I do not care to defend against baseless accusations and cheap shots. Thank you for the honest response.

As for the proposal... Personally, I'd prefer to see the Prime Minister appoint the Military commander - if we want to go through with our democratic approach, we ought to ensure the military is able to be used as a foreign policy tool by the person who is in charge of the Executive.

I'm accusing you of pursuing foreign goals first and foremost. That's not a crime but it's not cheap or meaningless either.

When we last discussed this we chose to keep the guard under the control of the delegate specifically so that alignment wouldn't become an election issue if the amendment passed in order to discourage organisations like LWU from votestacking and aligning Lazarus. It doesn't surprise me that that measure troubles you.

I will point out that any R/Ders that responded in this thread have been reasonable and have not been mudslinging or accusing their R/D opponents (nor those who oppose their view on this amendment) of working for foreign regions intend on pursuing foreign interests in the region.

It's easy to remain calm when you don't care about the thing that's at risk. Maybe you're not accusing me of pursuing foreign goals because you're an exemplar of tranquillity or maybe it's just because this is literally the only region which I'm a member of.

 

[joWhatup]

I'm accusing you of pursuing foreign goals first and foremost. That's not a crime but it's not cheap or meaningless either.

True. But the political points you are trying to gain from it are both cheap and meaningless to me.

When we last discussed this we chose to keep the guard under the control of the delegate specifically so that alignment wouldn't become an election issue if the amendment passed in order to discourage organisations like LWU from votestacking and aligning Lazarus. It doesn't surprise me that that measure troubles you.

I was opposed to the whole democracy thing out of fear of foreign subversives votestacking the place initially, so I don't entirely understand what you are alluding to, but that makes sense.

It's easy to remain calm when you don't care about the thing that's at risk. Maybe you're not accusing me of pursuing foreign goals because you're an exemplar of tranquillity or maybe it's just because this is literally the only region which I'm a member of.

Perhaps I'm not accusing you of pursuing foreign goals because I believe you genuinely care for the region, despite disagreeing with you on this particular matter?

 

[McChimp]

True. But the political points you are trying to gain from it are both cheap and meaningless to me.

Non-existant, more like. I'm gaining nothing from this.

You, on the other hand, have a stake in this. This presents an opportunity for you to drag Lazarus into the raidersphere you represent.

 

[joWhatup]

Non-existant, more like. I'm gaining nothing from this.

You, on the other hand, have a stake in this. This presents an opportunity for you to drag Lazarus into the raidersphere you represent.

This opens up the ability to tag or detag. LWU, the region which interests I'm supposedly pursuing, gains nothing from either action.

 

[McChimp]

Non-existant, more like. I'm gaining nothing from this.

You, on the other hand, have a stake in this. This presents an opportunity for you to drag Lazarus into the raidersphere you represent.

This opens up the ability to tag or detag. LWU, the region which interests I'm supposedly pursuing, gains nothing from either action.

Not directly. Raiderdom as a whole would, though.

 

[Wymondham]

McChimp, I'm not talking in this thread as Vizier of FA in Osiris anymore than I am as NSToday PR Director of a Thalassian minister. I am talking in this thread as a Lazarene citizen. In my roles I represent the government's view of things as I am always bound by collective responsibility.

You're putting on a mask and telling me one thing then taking it off and telling me another. Just because you're not wearing your mask anymore doesn't mean you're not contradicting what you said and thereby undermining your government's position.

That is not at all what I'm doing McChimp. Am I not allowed to have views as a lazarene citizen? Or are you saying that because I serve in positions in other regions, like the other court justices,The assembly speaker and members of the govt, that it magically means my views are worth less as a citizen of Lazarus even when I am only asking for some decorum in this debate?

 

[New Rogernomics]

There is a bit of overlap between what is in 3 and 5, so we might want a combined section 3:

 

[McChimp]

That is not at all what I'm doing McChimp. Am I not allowed to have views as a lazarene citizen? Or are you saying that because I serve in positions in other regions, like the other court justices,The assembly speaker and members of the govt, that it magically means my views are worth less as a citizen of Lazarus even when I am only asking for some decorum in this debate?

I am saying that as FA Minister for another region you ought to be mindful of contradicting that region except in private discussions within it. I would not go to Osiris and contradict Lazarene policy regarding the NPO, for example.

 

[joWhatup]

That is not at all what I'm doing McChimp. Am I not allowed to have views as a lazarene citizen? Or are you saying that because I serve in positions in other regions, like the other court justices,The assembly speaker and members of the govt, that it magically means my views are worth less as a citizen of Lazarus even when I am only asking for some decorum in this debate?

I am saying that as FA Minister for another region you ought to be mindful of contradicting that region except in private discussions within it. I would not go to Osiris and contradict Lazarene policy regarding the NPO, for example.

 

[Wymondham]

There is a bit of overlap between what is in 3 and 5, so we might want a combined section 3:

Personally, I think a combined section 3 is the best way to go

 

[New Rogernomics]

Maybe something like:

(5) The procedure for empowering other military operations shall occur as follows:
a. The Minister of the Regional Guards shall submit an operation request,
b. Operational requests must comply with existing laws and treaties,
c. Operational requests must describe their purpose, inclusive of defending, raiding, or liberations,
d. Offensive operations shall be permitted in regions of X size/type,
e. Defensive operations shall be permitted in regions of X size/type,
f. Occupations or liberations shall also require approval from the Prime Minister/CLS/The Lizard King/Starfleet (???),
g. The Delegate shall decline or accept an operational request,
h. The Assembly may recall an operation by 50%+1 vote

 

[Roavin]

Let's take a step back here. Why do we have a Guard in the first place?

When Mandate 12 got started, Lazarus did not have a military, and intentionally so, because it did not want to present any opening again for imperialists, defenders, raiders, or francoists to step all over this region like has been done in the past decade. With no military there, there would be no incentive for malign actors to try to step in and sway whatever numbers Lazarus could bring (historically something between 3 and 15) to their purposes. If treaty obligations required us to defend an ally, we would form a temporary citizen militia to take care of those obligations, then dissolve it once the mission is over.

Then the whole NPO war started. Quite a few advised against it, and Imki gave all of us a very frank and honest view and prediction of what either choice would entail, but most just ignored all of that because the "NPO Delenda Est" propaganda from outside struck Lazarus deep.

So we made a guard, but as a compromise to those that were trying to keep Lazarus from getting into the same troubles again, the Guard was restricted. Those that wanted the war would get their military to wage war with, while those that were against the war got the assurance that the Guard wouldn't get to be involved in any of the R/D shenanigans that Lazarus was very deliberately keeping itself out of ever since Mandate 12.

Then in November we got the first attempt at opening up the Guard to be in R/D. One of the suggestions was even to make its alignment subject to the Prime Minister, as if to say to the world "HEY, SUBVERT US!". Fortunately, that failed, but at too narrow a margin for comfort. And here we are again.

So, to recap: Lazarus, starting with Mandate 12, intentionally did not have a military. That principle was broken due to outside propaganda that led to Lazarus declaring war, a war that more and more Lazarenes now want to get out of. Already we've gotten on the slippery slope, and now we're talking about letting go and sliding further down. Why? Why in [violet]'s name would we do this to ourselves?

The arguments that have been made for this proposal can be categorized in one of two ways.

First, it is argued that this improves regional activity. This is simply false. No full-featured region ever got a major source of activity from its military in the history of NationStates. I don't wish to ascribe malice to anybody that has brought this argument here, but please consider its origin: This false argument was invented by the Imperialist sphere and, together with the invention of the ill-named "Independence" alignment, used as a tool to politically drive regions to support their military operations. Lazarenes that were around in 2017 should find this familiar, as the same rhetoric was used back then by Funkadelia and Lamb Stone to argue for an Independent Lazarus just before they overthrew the CU.

Second, the argument is that the "Guard" is bored, or that the individuals within the Guard wish to do more. I'm principally sympathetic to that argument, but Lazarus has no restrictions on cross-membership with other regions bar the NPO. It would not be treasonous or even disagreeable to satisfy the itch for military gameplay through a dedicated R/D region while keeping Lazarus as your home, and in fact many prominent Lazarenes already do this very thing.

Neither of these arguments postulate any non-negligible benefit to the region as a whole.

My fellow Shareholders, the dam is damaged already. Do your duty and don't let it break open even further.

 

[joWhatup]

Then the whole NPO war started. Quite a few advised against it, and Imki gave all of us a very frank and honest view and prediction of what either choice would entail, but most just ignored all of that because the "NPO Delenda Est" propaganda from outside struck Lazarus deep.

Quite a few, Roavin? You mean you, Arlo and Guinness Freaks.

So we made a guard, but as a compromise to those that were trying to keep Lazarus from getting into the same troubles again, the Guard was restricted. Those that wanted the war would get their military to wage war with, while those that were against the war got the assurance that the Guard wouldn't get to be involved in any of the R/D shenanigans that Lazarus was very deliberately keeping itself out of ever since Mandate 12.

Then in November we got the first attempt at opening up the Guard to be in R/D. One of the suggestions was even to make its alignment subject to the Prime Minister, as if to say to the world "HEY, SUBVERT US!". Fortunately, that failed, but at too narrow a margin for comfort. And here we are again.

Personally, I was never a fan of democracy in the first place - the Prime Minister being able to utilise the Guard for the agenda they were elected to execute, though, isn't that weird an idea, although I don't disagree it could be misused.

So, to recap: Lazarus, starting with Mandate 12, intentionally did not have a military. That principle was broken due to outside propaganda that led to Lazarus declaring war, a war that more and more Lazarenes now want to get out of. Already we've gotten on the slippery slope, and now we're talking about letting go and sliding further down. Why? Why in [violet]'s name would we do this to ourselves?

You seem to completely ignore what the NPO was attempting to do and the reasons we declared war. You did that during the war, and that trend still continues.

In regards to your concerns about people messing with us or why we believe this would help us, I agree with "Assholes will be assholes" and your reasoning of "Activity. Excitement", as you have said yourself.

 

[Deleted1]

Second, the argument is that the "Guard" is bored, or that the individuals within the Guard wish to do more. I'm principally sympathetic to that argument, but Lazarus has no restrictions on cross-membership with other regions bar the NPO. It would not be treasonous or even disagreeable to satisfy the itch for military gameplay through a dedicated R/D region while keeping Lazarus as your home, and in fact many prominent Lazarenes already do this very thing.

The way Jo's and Wymondham's cross-membership in dedicated R/D regions has been pointed out would make people think its very disagreeable. It hasn't made me want to open that door. I would rather do what I can at home.

 

[McChimp]

The way Jo's and Wymondham's cross-membership in dedicated R/D regions has been pointed out would make people think its very disagreeable. I hasn't made me want to open that door.

I haven't and would never insinuate that Wymondham or any Osiran would subvert Lazarus. Jo's cross membership isn't the issue, pursuing the goals of one organisation at the expense of the other is. I myself was a member of both TBH and Lazarus for a long time.