[Proposal] Democratic Reform Amendment (October 2019)

[McChimp]

From my perspective, it looks like you are just protecting your position and this thing smells more like corruption and a continuation of authoritarianism than any real attempt to be meritocratic or democratic.

The amendment was written with the intention of democratising the government, a decision I made after considering fruitful discord discussions and the apparent political realities of the mechanical sinkers. The Speaker isn't part of that government so if I had decided to change the appointment procedure for that position it would always have been an additional extra.

 

[New Rogernomics]

From my perspective, it looks like you are just protecting your position and this thing smells more like corruption and a continuation of authoritarianism than any real attempt to be meritocratic or democratic.

Whoa there.:lol:

There is plenty of time to propose more amendments, just not in this one.

For legal clarification, you can propose amending small chunks of the constitution.

 

[Deleted1]

I talked to McChimp on discord. There was a misunderstanding on my part. Things are cool.

 

[Deleted1]

I give it a third.

 

[Zapatian Workers State]

I looked over the amendment and I think everything is fine with it inasfar as democratic institutions are concerned within an NS context, but may I propose, as a new and frankly mostly clueless nation, that there should also be an attempt at greater outreach by the government to the masses of other mostly clueless, intimidated, and otherwise befuddled nations like myself, in order so that we might participate more freely and without stepping on bureaucratic toes.

 

[McChimp]

I looked over the amendment and I think everything is fine with it inasfar as democratic institutions are concerned within an NS context, but may I propose, as a new and frankly mostly clueless nation, that there should also be an attempt at greater outreach by the government to the masses of other mostly clueless, intimidated, and otherwise befuddled nations like myself, in order so that we might participate more freely and without stepping on bureaucratic toes.

I think that our newest citizens are a shining example of the Cabinet's efforts to get new people involved but I suppose there is always room for improvement. What this proposal aims to do is give citizens like you more power to ask for stuff like this!

 

[Zapatian Workers State]

I looked over the amendment and I think everything is fine with it inasfar as democratic institutions are concerned within an NS context, but may I propose, as a new and frankly mostly clueless nation, that there should also be an attempt at greater outreach by the government to the masses of other mostly clueless, intimidated, and otherwise befuddled nations like myself, in order so that we might participate more freely and without stepping on bureaucratic toes.

I think that our newest citizens are a shining example of the Cabinet's efforts to get new people involved but I suppose there is always room for improvement. What this proposal aims to do is give citizens like you more power to ask for stuff like this!

I understand that this theoretically allows someone like me to run for the premiership alright, but I meant something along the lines of a "ministry of assimilation" in the Cabinet to take newcomers by the hand and ease them into the workings of the administrative-bureaucratic monolith that is this region. For nations used to participating in user-created regions, this is all a bit overwhelming.

Also, one thing not covered by the amendment, upon second reading, is clarification if the Vice-Delegate shall remain the head of the Council of Lazarene Security ex officio. This is something I bring up because one would imagine such a significant reduction in the executive prerogative of the Delegate/CEO would also affect the Vice-Delegate just as radically. Especially since many executive directives under the supreme law require 50%+1 approval from the Council of Lazarene Security, it makes the Vice-Delegacy seem more attractive than the actual Delegacy. Aside from that, you seem to have done an amazing job being effective yet uncontroversial. (Partisanship thankfully seems not to have reared its ugly head as of yet.) Keep up the good work!

 

[McChimp]

I understand that this theoretically allows someone like me to run for the premiership alright, but I meant something along the lines of a "ministry of assimilation" in the Cabinet to take newcomers by the hand and ease them into the workings of the administrative-bureaucratic monolith that is this region. For nations used to participating in user-created regions, this is all a bit overwhelming.

Also, one thing not covered by the amendment, upon second reading, is clarification if the Vice-Delegate shall remain the head of the Council of Lazarene Security ex officio. This is something I bring up because one would imagine such a significant reduction in the executive prerogative of the Delegate/CEO would also affect the Vice-Delegate just as radically. Especially since many executive directives under the supreme law require 50%+1 approval from the Council of Lazarene Security, it makes the Vice-Delegacy seem more attractive than the actual Delegacy. Aside from that, you seem to have done an amazing job being effective yet uncontroversial. (Partisanship thankfully seems not to have reared its ugly head as of yet.) Keep up the good work!

The amendment doesn't mandate any ministries and it would be inconvenient for the Prime Minister if it did, since that would be particularly inflexible. NR's proposal does include a "Gameside Outreach" ministry that would be responsible for doing that.

The Vice Delegacy is unchanged by the amendment (hence the article discussing it not appearing in the proposal). As such they do remain chairperson of the CLS. Excepting that role, the position of Vice Delegate exists purely for the Delegate's successor to inhabit and is essential to the meritocratic security apparatus that the proposal retains. Since in some ways the CLS exists to inhibit the Delegate, I don't think it makes sense for the Delegate to chair it themselves. I don't think the they shall be wanting for stuff to do either, since there are plenty of institutions that they still appoint people to serve in and powers that ought to be discussed with the government and other state officials before they are exercised.

 

[Zapatian Workers State]

I understand that this theoretically allows someone like me to run for the premiership alright, but I meant something along the lines of a "ministry of assimilation" in the Cabinet to take newcomers by the hand and ease them into the workings of the administrative-bureaucratic monolith that is this region. For nations used to participating in user-created regions, this is all a bit overwhelming.

Also, one thing not covered by the amendment, upon second reading, is clarification if the Vice-Delegate shall remain the head of the Council of Lazarene Security ex officio. This is something I bring up because one would imagine such a significant reduction in the executive prerogative of the Delegate/CEO would also affect the Vice-Delegate just as radically. Especially since many executive directives under the supreme law require 50%+1 approval from the Council of Lazarene Security, it makes the Vice-Delegacy seem more attractive than the actual Delegacy. Aside from that, you seem to have done an amazing job being effective yet uncontroversial. (Partisanship thankfully seems not to have reared its ugly head as of yet.) Keep up the good work!

The amendment doesn't mandate any ministries and it would be inconvenient for the Prime Minister if it did, since that would be particularly inflexible. NR's proposal does include a "Gameside Outreach" ministry that would be responsible for doing that.

The Vice Delegacy is unchanged by the amendment (hence the article discussing it not appearing in the proposal). As such they do remain chairperson of the CLS. Excepting that role, the position of Vice Delegate exists purely for the Delegate's successor to inhabit and is essential to the meritocratic security apparatus that the proposal retains. Since in some ways the CLS exists to inhibit the Delegate, I don't think it makes sense for the Delegate to chair it themselves. I don't think the they shall be wanting for stuff to do either, since there are plenty of institutions that they still appoint people to serve in and powers that ought to be discussed with the government and other state officials before they are exercised.

My objection to not having a clearly fixed and defined set of bureaucratic departments would be the potential for the development of a spoils system, with the Prime Minister appointing his favorites into newly created offices in return for their obeisance in all things. However, making the prospective appointees to these offices subject to confirmation by the Assembly seems to take care of this problem rather nicely, so that objection is moot.

As for the other part of my argument, I was not suggesting that the Delegate should chair the Council, but rather wondering why the Vice-Delegate's powers were not reduced to a degree proportionate to the Delegate proper. However, keeping in mind that the Council of Lazarene Security's main functions do seem restricted to holding the Delegate accountable and checking his actions, I see the merit in leaving the Vice-Delegate be in his place as chairperson of the Council.

In any event, I already voted yea for the amendment, so it's not like this was really a matter of great concern to me.

 

[New Rogernomics]

As for the other part of my argument, I was not suggesting that the Delegate should chair the Council, but rather wondering why the Vice-Delegate's powers were not reduced to a degree proportionate to the Delegate proper. However, keeping in mind that the Council of Lazarene Security's main functions do seem restricted to holding the Delegate accountable and checking his actions, I see the merit in leaving the Vice-Delegate be in his place as chairperson of the Council.

Well, the Vice Delegacy has a higher bar to reach than all other officials pretty much. You have to be selected by the Delegate and win a two-thirds vote of the assembly to get in to the role. Just as we have a chairperson for the assembly, we have one for the CLS, to keep it line so to speak.

At least from the idea of this constitution change, the premise is that by making the Delegacy less about political power, and more of a guardianship of the region role, we don't get power-hungry folks holding it. The assembly could reasonably expect those who hold it to be more politically neutral and actually do their job than only do it to be re-elected.

In the past, talking Humane Republic and Celestial Union, which were past democratic governments, the Delegacy became a political power grab that folks wanted just to put on their political resume, and eventually we got a Delegacy that led to civil war and chaos.

We might elect the Delegacy again some day, and things around the Vice-Delegacy might change around that. Though, most seem against any major change for security concerns right now, more on the lines of trusting a known quantity i.e. Tubbs, myself, and the Directors/Ministers, than someone who could be a foreign infiltrator or potential couper waiting for the chance.

Ultimately a Prime Minister and/or elected cabinet, is a political compromise between having a fully elected Delegate and political freedom of the citizens to change their government at will - without the security risks involved.

If we were to elect the Delegate, which is something I see as far off, then I'd want a lot more security hoops and a lot of vetting before they reach the ballot box. They'd have to have the trust of the CLS and security apparatus at least, even before the assembly decides whether they should trust them or not, which would mean only previously elected officials of high standing and a history of hard work and dedication could run for it, and not just random unknowns who we trust on faith not to coup us.

At least from recent events in TEP, it seems we are right to keep close hold onto the reigns with reliable delegates for now, than risk it on someone that on a political whim could bring chaos to the region, and coup their own government.

Pretty much, just like the Founder in a User Created Region, if they aren't a decent sort, the region can end up a terrible place to be, as the government cannot exist without them.

 

[Zapatian Workers State]

As for the other part of my argument, I was not suggesting that the Delegate should chair the Council, but rather wondering why the Vice-Delegate's powers were not reduced to a degree proportionate to the Delegate proper. However, keeping in mind that the Council of Lazarene Security's main functions do seem restricted to holding the Delegate accountable and checking his actions, I see the merit in leaving the Vice-Delegate be in his place as chairperson of the Council.

Well, the Vice Delegacy has a higher bar to reach than all other officials pretty much. You have to be selected by the Delegate and win a two-thirds vote of the assembly to get in to the role. Just as we have a chairperson for the assembly, we have one for the CLS, to keep it line so to speak.

At least from the idea of this constitution change, the premise is that by making the Delegacy less about political power, and more of a guardianship of the region role, we don't get power-hungry folks holding it. The assembly could reasonably expect those who hold it to be more politically neutral and actually do their job than only do it to be re-elected.

In the past, talking Humane Republic and Celestial Union, which were past democratic governments, the Delegacy became a political power grab that folks wanted just to put on their political resume, and eventually we got a Delegacy that led to civil war and chaos.

We might elect the Delegacy again some day, and things around the Vice-Delegacy might change around that. Though, most seem against any major change for security concerns right now, more on the lines of trusting a known quantity i.e. Tubbs, myself, and the Directors/Ministers, than someone who could be a foreign infiltrator or potential couper waiting for the chance.

Ultimately a Prime Minister and/or elected cabinet, is a political compromise between having a fully elected Delegate and political freedom of the citizens to change their government at will - without the security risks involved.

If we were to elect the Delegate, which is something I see as far off, then I'd want a lot more security hoops and a lot of vetting before they reach the ballot box. They'd have to have the trust of the CLS and security apparatus at least, even before the assembly decides whether they should trust them or not, which would mean only previously elected officials of high standing and a history of hard work and dedication could run for it, and not just random unknowns who we trust on faith not to coup us.

At least from recent events in TEP, it seems we are right to keep close hold onto the reigns with reliable delegates for now, than risk it on someone that on a political whim could bring chaos to the region, and coup their own government.

Pretty much, just like the Founder in a User Created Region, if they aren't a decent sort, the region can end up a terrible place to be, as the government cannot exist without them.

I am afraid there might have been some miscommunication. I never stated or implied that the Delegate should be an elected position. My problems were addressed.

Interesting thing about the East Pacific is that I hope to be stationed there if my ambassador application is approved. The recent tumult there seems interesting.