[Discussion] War with the NPO

[Imkihca]

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War with the NPO.​

Citizens of Lazarus,

most of you have been following and voicing your opinions on the latest revelation in our long line of regional scandals. Once again outside forces meddled in your region's affairs and violated your regional sovereignty to their own end. Lazarus is a home of rebirth and fresh starts, but these latest perpetrators are not unknown to us. They have been found guilty of past offences against Lazarus, only to be given the chance to redeem themselves and start again, as is our forgiving nature.

Some of you have advocated for joining the current war efforts against the New Pacific Order; some of you have advised against it. Even if it may seem that we did not participate in all of those discussions and conversations, we did listen to you and have seen and pondered over all the arguments that you all have brought forth. After some consideration, both Tubbius and I agree that the best course of action is to let you, the citizens of this great region, decide whether we mobilise for war or not. We urge you, however, that you do not make this decision lightly, or in haste. We will share with you our thoughts on this matter. Some of these thoughts you have heard before; some may be entirely new. Please take these thoughts into consideration as you ponder what you think the right choice for Lazarus is.

For many years, the New Pacific Order has been a constant thorn in our side, its officials incessantly seeking to undermine us and our sovereignty. We would not be alone in this war either, but rather standing alongside our sister sinker Osiris and several other regions that have already declared war. It would finally allow us to pay back some of the pain that we have endured at their hands for years and show them that they cannot fool with us any longer or take advantage.

Furthermore, the social and economic benefits of a war abroad cannot be understated. Such a big unified goal will bring our citizenry closer together, acting and fighting side-by-side. Our residents will be engaged and motivated to participate in defence and patriotism for their region, which will surely prompt many of them to participate in ways they had otherwise been wary of. Without a doubt, engaging in this war will be a boon to our unity and our activity.

On the other hand, while we weren't formally at war, this region has been warred over for much of the past three years, if not longer. We are more stable than we have ever been in recent memory. A war threatens that stability. We would have to create a military again, with all the implications attached that have previously led us to eschew such an institution. The war will also make us a target once more. The New Pacific Order has seemingly left us alone after the installation of Mandate 12, finally; the transgressions that had been revealed predate the Anarchy Week back in April. By declaring war on them, we, in turn, become fair game to their machinations once more, and also to any region that might ally itself with the New Pacific Order.

Participating in this war would also bring up ugly memories of the fighting we've had here at home, both against foreigners and against each other; the returning weariness of Lazarenes from years past cannot be papered over by swift and glorious victories, because a war against the New Pacific Order must inherently be a war of attrition, long and arduous, and there is no consensus on whether such a war can be won at all.

Last but not least, it's a question of identity. Who are we? Are we warriors seeking to enact revenge upon those that have slighted us, or do we let bygones be bygones and concentrate on us and what makes us special? Do we reject the New Pacific Order's obviously begrudging attempts to meet our demands, or do we hold our word and accept that they have met our terms? Which kind of Lazarus do we want to be?

Fellow citizens, I do apologise for the heavy burden I am laying on you with this decision, but we feel at the same time that it is too important for us to simply order by fiat. The consequences of this decision will immeasurably shape the future of Lazarus in the years to come, and so we urge you with all of our conviction that you think about this rationally and with care. If you need to refresh yourself on the recent events, please see the following - Miniluv Messenger Articles (Part 1 & Part 2), our Demands to the NPO and the NPO Statement and Apology threads.

Speaker, by the power vested in me by Article I.5 of Mandate 12, I hereby request that the Assembly debate and vote on a declaration of war against the New Pacific Order.

Thank you for your continued time and efforts to make Lazarus a better, safer place.

Signed,
Imkiville
Delegate of Lazarus
Treadwellia
Vice-Delegate of Lazarus

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[Atlantica]

I thank Imki for bringing this critical matter up for debate and vote by the Assembly. By now, I presume most of y'all are aware of my support for war, and I fully intend on voting accordingly in the Assembly. Moreover, I fully reiterate the potential benefits of war Imki listed (and will repost the five reasons for war I posted earlier on the forums and on Discord for everyone's convenience; these five reasons in many ways overlap with the reasons Imki listed), while in regards to the potential drawbacks, I don't necessarily see how it's problematic.

Firstly, regarding the stability argument, I don't see how that would negatively be impacted; I, for one, consider it dubious that the NPO wouldn't have engaged in any machinations, as Imki's post describes them. Certainly, there is a lack of evidence the NPO has done so, but lack of knowledge shouldn't be assumed as a ceasing of hostilities; the fact that we and Osiris had absolutely no idea about the level of subversion itself until a couple of weeks ago testifies to this critical fact; moreover, Pergamon's well-documented hostility towards Lazarus, coupled with Cormac's demonstration that the NPO is doing little to authentically reform itself internally, not to mention historical record, makes me suspicious that the NPO hasn't already engaged in some level of subversion of Lazarus, or at least that a declaration of war wouldn't exacerbate NPO efforts. The logs themselves were also presumably leaked by figures who are no longer linked to the NPO (Block is a good example, and the almost-certain leaker Ark is another good one) and therefore have nothing to lose politically; they were also mostly leakings of happenings that occurred quite some time ago and before the countercoup.

In regards to the military/alignment aspect of destabilization, I don't think that's a problem; as far as I can tell, there's a broad consensus to Neutrality, ergo having a military shouldn't cause internal conflicts in the region. Besides, I think that war could serve to heal the wounds of the Civil War a great bit, as it could unite both major Lazarene factions against the NPO (indeed, it's already started to do that).

I also don't think that weariness is too significant a concern. First and foremost, the potential conflict we may be getting involved with is an external

The following is a slightly modified argument I made via successive posts in the Discord server, which I've posted below for everyone's convenience:

I disagree with the argument that war should be a last resort in circumstances regarding grievous and hitherto-unknown violations of sovereignty; indeed, war can be a preferable option in numerous circumstances, particularly in Lazarus' circumstances, for the following reasons:

Firstly, in a context such as this one, wherein war against the NPO is the geopolitical reality many regions have chosen to adopt, to do anything less than that makes it look like we are choosing to forge and lead a course of moderation in dealing with the NPO; not quite stuck in the middle between war and alliance (that would be true neutrality), but certainly close to it; and that is an inappropriate response because the actions against Lazarus the NPO perpetrated were not the most moderate, but rather the most extreme, more extreme than even its actions against Osiris.

Secondly, by declaring war, we open to ourselves a large swathe of allies and defenders we do not presently have, by virtue of being co-belligerents with them. This is of significant advantage to our own internal security; furthermore, it need not conflict with our own pluralist and open values, because this war is not a conflict of Independence/Raiderism vs. Defenderism/Francoism, considering XKI/TRR's comparative coolness in dealing with the NPO; it is a conflict of Anti-Francoism vs. Francoism, a wholly reasonable proposition considering Francoism's imperialist propositions.

Thirdly, war has the potential of unifying a hitherto-disparate populace by causing the existential threat to cause people to rally; by unifying the people, it will lead to immense activity. Furthermore, this very much has the possibility of, in our case, causing the creation of an active military; not only a boon in and of itself by virtue of creating activity, but a boon particularly because explicitly pluralist and non-ideological (beyond anti-Francoist) aims would be enabled by the creating circumstances.

Fourthly, and most importantly, this is a pronouncement of our own sovereignty in regards to this threat; not only will it naturally inspire immense vigilance against this threat, it will also be a mere response to acts of aggression by responding in kind.

Fifthly, there's no legitimate reason not to go to war, and to be honest, official, declared war in NS is not the inherent-but-sometimes-necessary evil it is in real life. It is, for the reasons I outlined above, in many cases a very good and positive thing in and of itself; furthermore, it does not really have the negative consequences of real-life war. There are no lives lost, no infrastructure destroyed, etc.; wars are in NationStates as propagandistic as they are militaristic. This opposition to war is a mistaken belief born out of real-life concerns, not out of pragmatic recognition of NSGP realities. The major consequence of war in NS is geopolitical, not material and biological as in real-life; and such geopolitical consequences are (A): Minimal in Lazarus' case because it presently lacks geopolitical allies, and would be compensated for with allies via co-belligerents, and (B): Minimal in any case because NS war does not seriously threaten the safety and security of regions with high Delegate counts (such as Lazarus).

 

[Wymondham]

Here Here Imki, a strong and clear speech. NPO delenda eat!

 

[Arlo]

I do not think we should go to war.  Let me try to explain the reasons I think this.

A war against the Pacific would not achieve anything. The Pacific is a fortress state and, no matter how many regions align against it, it will not fall to military force.

That's not to say the NPO is undefeatable -- but the only way that regime will fall is from within. If we want to work towards that goal, that's a possibility, but that's a different conversation entirely, and it doesn't require a state of war nor the mustering of a militia. (Going down this line slightly further -- I'm not implying infiltration by us. There are pieces already in place, we just have to push in the right direction I think.)

Declaring a state of war would be a whole lot of blustering, it might involve invading a few irrelevant backwaters like St Abaddon or whatever, but it won't achieve it's stated goal of destroying the NPO. It'll be all talk -- and there's nothing that irks me more than that, all the politicians moving their mouths when they know full well they aren't actually going to do anything.

The odds of a military campaign actually doing anything meaningful are very low, and I wouldn't gamble on that one personally.

And it is a gamble. It involves us either declaring war and doing nothing afterwards, or mustering a militia and attempting to actually fight that war. The first is just an embarrassment, the second is something we need to consider carefully.

Do we want to militarise Lazarus again? I know the Mandate leaves open the possibility for us to create a military. But I personally am against it. Militaries are distractions -- I don't think they contribute an awful lot to a community, and I think they have the potential to create significant internal conflict. We've seen this before of course -- internal conflict over alignment. 

You can argue the military be constitutionally neutral. But you have two choices; either the military does not regularly engage in operations because of entrenched neutrality, in which case its members will be amateurs, or the military does engage in regular operations, in which case those operations will be the subject of criticism and disagreement. A military which only practices in the warzones will rapidly become bored. 

This is the gamble at play. A military has notable diplomatic benefits in allowing us to actively provide assistance for our allies, and it provides an opportunity for our citizens to become involved and have fun. But will these benefits outweigh the accompanying potential for sectarian conflict?

I think an ally that is only interested in what we have to offer, namely military assistance, is not much of a friend anyway, so I don't put too much weight on the first point. Sure, we get assistance in return, but quite frankly if we are in a position where we have to ask for that help, we've already failed and they are unlikely to save us.

Our allies should be friends, not business deals. This also touches on the point that going to war would net us a haul of allies. They would be allies of convenience with a mutual enemy, and I wouldn't put too much stock in their support. And like I just said, I don't think they would provide any substantial bolster to our security. We and we alone are responsible for protecting the region, and if we fail there isn't overly much other regions will be able to do to help us.

Perhaps the most practical point is that I think we simply do not have the members and interest to support an active and successful military -- those who would be interested are already attached to other regional forces, and a military staffed entirely by those with commitments elsewhere isn't a recipe for success. As follows, I don't think we have the resources to contribute meaningfully to a war against the NPO (setting aside that I think contributing any resources to the fight would be a waste of said resources).

I am opposed to the creation of a military -- and am accordingly opposed to war. I believe the way forward lies in a peaceful and neutral Lazarus. I don't think the gamble is worth it. Let the past lie, let's focus our energy on building a vibrant culture and community, instead of on a war that won't go anywhere. Instead of having people build infrastructure and policy for a military, they could be doing many other things that I consider more valuable -- because other activities benefit our community, rather than this crusade by other regions and particular individuals against the NPO.

I'm not an NPO fan -- so please don't cast me in that light. I've been critical of them for a long time and am quite possibly still banned on their boards (for trolling Karpathos? I think...).

We also need to consider the fact that we made demands, and the Pacific met them. I find it a bit discouraging that we would declare war after that; I'm many things, but I'm always honest, and this strikes me as profoundly dishonest.

I am not saying the actions of the Pacific should go without consequence. But I only support meaningful action, well considered action, and I do not support climbing onto the "NPO delenda est" bandwagon. I think we should pass the Hostile Entities and Persons Act, and should promptly declare the New Pacific Order to be a Hostile Entity. All NPO members would be unwelcome in this region. That is a strong reaction, it is one which does not require war, and unlike war it has an actual and lasting effect. 

Will proscription guarantee the NPO does not meddle in our affairs again? Let's not be naive, of course it won't. But we are not in immediate danger and are not under threat -- so let's not let our decision making be motivated by the prospect of the Pacific doing bad things to us.

War will not prevent the NPO from meddling in our affairs either, because the war won't be successful. If anything, prolonged conflict is likely to drive the Pacific to its old ways, instead of encouraging it to change. We don't have to actually believe it will change, that's also naive, considering the NPO has done this before. So what we do is just cut the NPO off and isolate it, leaving it to either demonstrate change or rot.

That's my two cents.

 

[McChimp]

The NPO has hurt our region a great deal, causing perhaps irreparable damage to the community here. The demands-though bold-were not bold enough and I am sure that in time the NPO, whose new leaders are already showing that jingoism was not unique to Perg, Feux and those others, will find new ways to circumvent them and abuse our trust.
I believe firmly that the conditions in Lazarus are right to strike the balance of a neutral military. We have discussed the laws required to regulate armed forces with some success and I am confident that our diverse citizenry would defend such legislation in the future. Open warfare may not lead to a quick victory-there will be no quick victory-but it will ensure that wherever the NPO tries its hand at expansion next, we will be there to fight them. If our region is going to endure, it must not be a passive player. We must stand up for ourselves and for others.

Lazarus rises!

 

[Galiantus]

I have nearly always had a negative view of the NPO, even not knowing the full extent of their actions against various regions. In early 2017, I actually made a very pitiful attempt to bring the region down. However, I quickly saw the impossibility of the task and soon lost interest. Unbeknownst to me at the time, several members of the NPO were busy infiltrating the ranks of Lazarus.

Gatesville Inc became my home region starting in the Spring of 2017. Nearly since my first discovering NationStates I have been anti-World Assembly, and I felt that going back to the roots of the most prominent region with anti-WA tendencies would be a good move in trying to further that cause. I soon discovered, however, that the old members of Gatesville were all retired or very low energy. It was like trying to organize a professional football team from an old-folks home - it wasn't going to happen.

However, I did meet some new blood within the region. Pikasistan was in the region at the time, and we began working closely with each other to try and reform Gatesville. This was around the time that Curious Observations began releasing information about the elections in Lazarus, as gameplay became more and more aware of some kind of schism forming in the region. Pika and I observed at a distance, and decided that perhaps the best way to spread anti-WA ideology might be through involvement in the civil war. Perhaps if we picked the winning side we could gain some influence, and subsequently grow Gatesville. The whole idea was selfish, but we eventually chose to side with the Celestial Union - unaware that LWU (a close friend of Gatesville) would turn up on the opposite side.

The reason I am a citizen of Lazarus is because I got involved in last year's civil war. I did not initially join the war for the most pure reasons, but in the process, I made friends in the region, and became invested in the idea of a free and independent Lazarus. At the beginning of 2018, Pika and I tried to, while supporting our side of the war in Lazarus, revive Gatesville once and for all. Again, the place was an old-folks home. Through our meeting, they decided to retire Gatesville officially, and denied us the name of Gatesville in any future projects. Thus we created Gilgamesh, as the new home of the anti-WA.

I was split between two regions. I was trying to grow a new region while also fighting against the now Khanate in Lazarus. My region grew, but I could not dedicate myself to it. I chose to support Lazarus over the region I founded, and handed over the founder to Pikasistan. I should note that at this point, the NPO looked very good in the eyes of gameplay, as the LWU openly controlling Lazarus validated the ideals of Francoism and the userite/feederite divide. Had the NPO taken the region at this time I would have supported their effort, and the NPO would have won Lazarus with full support from Gameplay. But instead, Imkiville took the region, ending the war, and leading to what we have today.

For the months following the war, I believed I would forever keep my WA nation, Americastrailia, here endorsing Imki for the rest of my time here on NS. I believed the war was over, and Lazarus would now enjoy a long period of peace and stability. It was the end for me, except for maybe a few ideas I wished to inject into the GP community before retiring.

Cue the recent revelations about the NPO's involvement in the civil war I fought in.

As one invested in the security of Lazarus, learning of the NPO meddling has changed my perspective a lot. It turns out the effort I spent contributing to a free, independent Lazarus was misplaced. The real war that brought me here, apparently, was the war the NPO was waging on Lazarus. I now feel very silly for not having continued my war on the NPO. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them and waited for the opportune moment, I would be in a position to fight them effectively in this oncoming war. Perhaps I could have discovered Taskforce Lazarus sooner.

The point is, I have been fighting the NPO for nearly two years now, sometimes fully knowing, sometimes unknowing. Lazarus needs more people involved in keeping it secure - and the lack of a security force is exactly what has allowed it to be used so badly for the past several years. We would like to think that Imkiville won't be subject to the kind of attack Funkadelia was, but this is wishful thinking. The NPO has repeatedly tried to subject Lazarus. Why would they stop? Whether or not we declare war on them, we have every reason to believe they are continuing their war on us.

If we stay out of this war, we will become complacent. This will open up much more room for subversive elements to try and pull the same trick that was pulled on Funk, but on Imki - or for that matter, any other possible group in the region. If we declare war, however, then we all have some common goal to rally around. Those arguing against going to war claim that having a regional military could divide us, but I argue the exact opposite. Just look at every region the NPO has been discovered trying to subvert: we are the only ones that didn't have an army at the time. TNP, TWP, TSP, and Osiris all were taken advantage of in some way, but they had a military. Lazarus did not have an army, and it was the one that fell.

Declaring war is, in my mind, the only reasonable option we have at this point. The NPO has shown full-well that they intend to conquer Lazarus, whatever their moment-to-moment appearance might otherwise suggest. Furthermore, if we just sit back and take it, we only increase the odds that subversive attacks can succeed; if more people are aware of and take an active role in regional security, as is promoted by having a military, then the region as a whole can be more unified and secure against subversive attacks.

Finally, Lazarus is not alone in this - we have plenty of friends. If this was just us alone, fighting the NPO would be a hopeless cause. But our allies have begun war on the NPO, and our commitment to such a cause can only help it. We certainly have our own reasons to fight the NPO, but the NPO has also attacked our fellow GCRs. Even ignoring our personal grievances towards the NPO, we owe support to our fellow sovereign regions. This is not a selfish cause to fight for! There is hardly a region of any significance the NPO has not made an attempt to take, and given past actions we have no reason to believe them capable of or willing to change.

I urge all citizens of Lazarus to support the proposition to declare war on the New Pacific Order. We have given the matter considerable thought. Entering a state of war is the course of action that can win us justice, best contributes to our survival, and is an act of support for our fellow feeders and sinkers.

 

[Ryccia]

The measure before us is of the greatest importance. It could, and not only could, but will singularly and drastically alter the course of our dear region, Lazarus, for the rest of eternity.

A war is a conflict: an act of aggression made to assault your enemy directly, head-on. A war must serve a purpose, or it is only a bluff, a façade for inaction and mere words pretending to be something, yet only being talk, waves of sound or data in your phone or computer that might as well count for nothing.

I must repeat, war must serve a purpose, and must have a strategy, a plan. If our only plan is to be angered beyond belief, despite having the most grand of reasons and the worst injury, then this is not a war at all. It will only endanger us once more to the claws and fangs of this subversive wolf, and now they have a clear and pristine reason to infiltrate us: we are their enemy.

It is to my greatest sadness that we cannot defeat the New Pacific Order in a conflict, no matter the magnitude. It is technically possible, but it shall require an eternal fighting spirit from various regions, which is not unlimited and will always fatigue; the most absolute patience, which no one possesses; the numbers and a strategy to defeat them, which we do not have; and a weakened regime in the Pacific, to which there is only a slim possibility, if at all. The odds are stacked against us, for this war requires the absolute destruction of the New Pacific Order, but the probabilities of this happening are so low and the time it shall take so long, it might as well be impossible. Unrealistic. A dream.

We shall only be a target. I wish not one of my homelands destroyed, eviscerated by this monster, an expert of espionage, manipulation, subversion, infiltration and conquest, and it is able to muster a fanatical populace, plus its allies beyond this very game. The number of units they can marshal to defend themselves is staggering, and it shall necessitate a legendary effort which shall never happen.

To have a dragon furious, persecute you, attempt to tear you apart and spew fire at you is extremely dangerous. Why must we wake it? Why must we rattle this threat and make it an even greater threat, when we cannot defeat it?

A war shall also require an army. Our history is chartered with the eternal conflict of raiders and defenders, and I wish not our region to be split by this yet again. It has occurred far too often, and we are not the exception.

I fear for a military, for it might forge an alignment, and drag our region once more into the dirty, foul and toxic politics of R/D. It might bring us terror and division once more which we may not be able to combat, as our political ancestors struggled to do or joined the party and ruined this land.

Yes, we must remember our past, our injuries and our indignities. But that is what a proscription is for. There is no guarantee that, upon declaring war, the New Pacific Order shall magically cease to infiltrate us. If we do so, we will make the dragon angrier, more hostile, more dangerous than it ever was. A proscription is not a 100% guarantee either. But it shall inevitably be something, a formidable barrier regardless. Let us cease all communication and declare our anger, but let it not forge itself into a palpable thorn that may bring our doom.

 

[New Rogernomics]

War. It really has come to this. I am not sure how I feel about the prospect of a war with the New Pacific Order, even if the allegations prove true that the New Pacific Order has been infiltrating and manipulating Lazarus for many years. It may be a needless distraction from rebuilding Lazarus, or might be a much needed effort to bring the region together, behind a common goal and common cause, and common enemy.

However before I get ahead of myself, I need to bring further context to the discussion, around what sort of Lazarus we want this region to be. I had been asked to write a history of Lazarus, so perhaps I had best start now.

Lazarus when I joined, was a community that was small and close knit, and largely inactive. We had many members from different UCRs and some from other GCRs. We had at least a citizen from Gatesville, and several citizens from LKE/TNI/Europeia. We struggled to find active people to do things though, and I often had to be the one sending out the Gazette, and otherwise that duty often fell to Harmoneia.

Before the People's Republic of Lazarus, the status quo was that we might have coup d'etats, and changes of leadership, but the community would remain the same, and no one would be kicked out or otherwise banned, unless it was absolutely necessary. North East Summerset, who was a long-term delegate, was one of the first to go in that new order. Then after that those who leaned 'raider' were removed, till I found myself mentioned in PRL party statements as evidence that not all 'raiders' were removed, even though I had never been an active duty raider and only aligned with them.

In a way, I must give some respect to Milograd and the New Pacific Order, with what they attempted with The People's Republic of Lazarus, and later with the New Lazarene Order. It was far more active than the last iterations of Lazarus, and brought together a community spirit that didn't exist before as a region. But it came at the price of Lazarene independence, openness, and major bans of Lazarenes and players who wanted to participate but had the 'wrong alignment' according to the leadership.

With the birth of the Humane Republic of Lazarus, we sought to get past that, opening the borders to 'raiders', 'defenders' and those on the previous PRL ban list alike. No doubt many Pacificans and members of the People's Republic of Lazarus, resent Kazmr for this, but like Imki he just wanted a Lazarus that was free and independent, not a trophy for another GCR or UCR. It remained a highly active community, not losing that product of the People's Republic of Lazarus. Unfortunately that openness came with a price tag of its own, and that was that openness could lead to infiltration and coups.

By the time of the Celestial Union, those divisions were starting to show, with at least two major factions among Lazarenes, and a hidden one led by citizens of the New Pacific Order. To sum up those factions, we had Funkadelia and Lamb, and Killer Kitty leading a raider leaning faction, and Harmoneia, myself and large numbers of defender leaning Lazarenes in the other faction. But without knowledge of anyone, citizens of the New Lazarene Order were playing into the fears and paranoia of both factions, in order to take back Lazarus, either as another People's Republic of Lazarus, or as a region directly ruled from The Pacific and their forum.

With Lazarus as it is now, we have an opportunity to learn from the past, and not repeat it in the present. If we go to war it must be for the right reasons, if we don't decide to go to war, then we must have the right reasons for that as well.

I'll do my best to summarize the justifications, as I see it for each:

War, if we do go forward with it, will come with it's own set of risks and opportunities. Firstly, in declaring war we will make ourselves more of a target for the New Pacific Order, and resentment and hostility will likely run deep. That said, an argument could be made that whether we want hostilities with the New Pacific Order or not, enough Pacificans remain hostile towards Lazarus that peace and normal diplomacy is impossible with The Pacific for the foreseeable future. In declaring war now, we go into it with many other regions behind us and in support of us, both militarily and in terms of political support, which is just as important. Secondly, we would have knock-on effects in terms of high morale on basis of 'defense of the region', and a mutual goal among both factions who participated in the Lazarene civil war. Though on the downside of that, eventually we might well get weary of the war, and find it draining activity and enthusiasm out of other duties and the general rebuild of the region. There is also a good chance that the regions currently at war, may declare peace in a few years, leaving us on our own again, with another region with more reason to resent or be hostile towards us. 

Peace, if we reject the idea of war, will also come with a price. Firstly, in rejecting war, many regions may see us as weak and indecisive, and see an opportunity to infiltrate and manipulate us as members of the New Pacific Order did. On the other hand, declaring war despite them ascending mostly or entirely to our demands, may give the perception to some we act in bad faith or went to an extreme, when an opportunity of ignoring the Pacific, and focusing entirely on rebuilding our region was given. Secondly, in maintaining peace we could still remain hostile to the New Pacific Order, and support military operations against the New Pacific Order, as well as establish our own military. It just wouldn't be on a war footing, and some basic diplomatic contact may in time lead to a New Pacific Order more amiable to Lazarus. But we went through that route before during the Humane Republic of Lazarus and Celestial Union, with the Lazarene government trying to rebuild trust with The Pacific, only for it blow up in our faces with infiltration and manipulation of the Lazarene region. 

I don't have the all the right answers here, and I can't offer a full answer one way or the other. I won't stand in the way of a war, but I can't support it entirely either. For that reason I am likely to abstain in any war vote. I can see reason for war, but I can also see adequate reason for peace.

 

[Legalist Zombal]

I support a war, as I have said on the discord. We must stand! We cannot just lay down and let the NPO hurt us anymore! To those worried about a military, this military could (and should imo) be disbanded after the fact. It would be around long enough to help us to destroy the NPO! Yes, it is a fortress. No, this wont be easy. But Lazarus, the duty is to us! It falls to us and those who will stand against the OPPRESSION OF FRANCOISM!

NPO DELENDA EST! LAZARUS RISES!

 

[joWhatup]

Honestly, I am very sad to see us forced to this decision. We could have rebuilt Lazarus, create a strong tight community, if only we were left alone.

However, we weren't and will not be left alone. I know many fear war will destroy Lazarus. But I fear that if we don't stand up for ourselves, they will come for us, sooner or later. The Pacific has shown it is not intend on leaving Lazarus alone. Yes, they're reforming, but how long will this last? How long will it take for them to come after us again? Yes, war will have it's costs too. But we can't escape paying a price. I fear war, but by far, do I fear the consequences of peace the most. War will require a lot from Lazarus, but we do not stand alone.

Even though I'd want peace, the Pacific has harmed us several times, and we have no reason to believe they won't repeat it. Therefore I support war. I'd want Lazarus to be able to take a neutral position and sit this all out, but we weren't bystanders; we were the target. They created a wedge between raiders and defenders, pushed them so far conflict was inavoidable. Not only that, but they attempted to coup it themselves when we were at our weakest. They were out for our region. I do not think we should let them get away with it. They are the biggest threat to Lazarus I can think of.

Therefore I support war. I do not want it, but I see it as necessary.

 

[Cormac]

I've already made my opinion well known on Discord and on this forum, so I'm not going to post a new wall of text about it -- not that anyone else shouldn't have, because all of these posts have been very articulate and have furthered the discussion. I appreciate all of you for putting the effort into them.

What I will do is repost what I've already posted on this forum (here

I think we should do one of two things:

1) We should lodge a formal diplomatic protest, as New Rogernomics has said is in the works, but it should include clear demands from the NPO similar in nature to Osiris' demands here (though not necessarily similar in detail - we should decide our own demands). In that statement, it should be made clear that if the NPO doesn't meet said demands, the Delegate will request from the Assembly a declaration of war. And then if the NPO doesn't meet our demands, we should declare war.

2) We should just skip all that and declare war, because they're not going to meet our demands.

Under no circumstances should we simply not declare war. Lazarus is the most wronged party here. The NPO has attacked us three times:

1. Once, during the NLO coup;
2. Twice, with Task Force Lazarus, which deliberately provoked a civil war;
3. Three times, with Feux posing as Adytus, trying to seize Lazarus' Delegacy, no doubt for NLO 2.0.

Lazarus simply can't tolerate this. Lazarus has to stop just taking this stuff and being kicked around. Lazarus has to recognize that the NPO is at war with us and has been at war with us for years, and we have to respond by acknowledging their war and declaring war ourselves. Other regions are going to be looking to see how we respond, because we're the most aggrieved party. We have to stand up for ourselves instead of expecting others to stand up for us. We have to stop talking about recovering and decide to be recovered. We have to tell the NPO and anyone else who would bully Lazarus again in the future that we're not going to take it anymore. In the process, we will gain the respect of former allies looking to see what we're made of, as well as the respect of new friends. If we stand up, others will stand with us. So let's stand up and fight for this region, because it's about damn time somebody fights for it.

I remain strongly supportive of war, as the only option for Lazarus that is dignified and would send a clear message that we are standing up for ourselves, and we are not going to tolerate this treatment from the NPO or anyone else in the future. I think it's a message that Lazarus badly needs to send. I think if we don't communicate this message loudly and clearly now, there will be more like Task Force Lazarus, by the NPO and by others, in the future. We need to draw a line.

 

[Imaginary]

I'm going to recuse myself from the vote because I'm very biased on this issue, for reasons that I don't think are entirely motivated by wanting the best for Lazarus.

I'll 100% support the decision made by the rest of you. If we go to war with the NPO, I will do what I can to make the order fall. If we opt for peace, I will accept that. Either way, I will never trust the NPO again.

-

Note to Galiantus: Lazarus has no allies at this time. I understand that it might be cool and nice and being a good friend to be in solidarity in this war with other regions, but we have no foreign commitments or duties that demand we take action.

 

[Domais]

Go to war! There is an Anti-Pacifican Discord server 20 - 50 people in it, they are from different orgs. If Laz. Doesn't have allies right now it will if we go to war. I say yes.

 

[Arlo]

I'm curious really -- what do people think a state of war will achieve?

In all likelihood we will be creating a military for a war that never really eventuates. It's a lot of work to do nothing.

We can send a strong message without wasting our time by proscribing the Order.

 

[Cormac]

I'm curious really -- what do people think a state of war will achieve?

In all likelihood we will be creating a military for a war that never really eventuates. It's a lot of work to do nothing.

We can send a strong message without wasting our time by proscribing the Order.

We need some kind of a military anyway. This has been discussed at length. Regions aren't going to agree to mutual defense treaties with us when those will in reality be one-sided. No one is going to be interested in defending Lazarus when Lazarus can't repay the favor, and isn't interested in doing anything to make sure it can repay the favor. Alliances aren't charity. They're give-and-take. And that doesn't make them a "business transaction" either, as you've implied. It just makes sense that if regions are giving something to an ally, they're wanting something in return. That's what makes it an alliance and a friendship, rather than a parasitic relationship in which Lazarus receives protection and the other region receives nothing in return. We shouldn't be looking for treaties that make Lazarus a protectorate of other regions, both because most regions aren't going to agree to that, and also because how undignified is that for Lazarus? So we need a military either way. It can be a neutral military, heavily restricted in its operations, but we do need one. So "we'll have to build a military" isn't a good argument against war. We're going to need to build one regardless. This idea of a Lazarus that has no military, but does have treaty allies, is ludicrous. We can't have just one or the other. We can either have a military and treaty allies, or no military and no treaty allies. That's reality.

I also want to ask the anti-war folks something here: What do you think the difference is between a proscription and a declaration of war? Do you imagine that the NPO is not going to interpret termination of relations and proscription of the NPO as being just as hostile as a declaration of war? The course of action you're suggesting, proscription with no war, is essentially a suggestion that Lazarus should provoke the NPO to war against us, but should not declare war in return. The NPO is going to treat Lazarus as a hostile region if we proscribe them. They have treated Lazarus as a hostile region for many years now, even during times of peace and ostensible good relations. So there's no question they're going to treat Lazarus as a hostile region if they're proscribed here. The question before this Assembly is whether we are going to passively sit back while the NPO continues its years-long war against Lazarus, or whether we are going to fully recognize that this state of war exists and is going to continue to exist, and make a declaration to that effect. We're not going to be at peace with a proscription. We're just going to be at war without acknowledging it, and without the heightened vigilance that accompanies a state of war. A proscription without a declaration of war is not just every bit as dangerous as a war declaration, it's more dangerous. It invites the NPO's hostility without committing us to a vigilant war effort.

 

[Arlo]

I still disagree. I've explained why I find that reasoning for having a military unconvincing. Why do we need mutual defence treaties? Interregional intervention does not end coups. These treaties honestly just provide a false sense of security.

It's not about how the NPO perceives us, it's about how much attention we want to give them. Your war gives them attention and relevance. I'd prefer to isolate them than continually engage with them.

It's also about practical consequences. Proscription allows us to make a strong statement and take action to protect ourselves. War won't achieve anything more than that, because you are not going to destroy the NPO -- not through military gameplay anyway. I think it's silly to join the chorus of people wasting their time yelling at the wind.

I really don't understand this idea that proscription is more dangerous than war, because it's just not. You said yourself -- the NPO will likely see them as the same action anyway. I disagree that declaring war will somehow make us more vigilant. What you're saying sounds good on paper but none of it translates into reality well.

It's about how we want to spend our time. I think we should spend it here, at home, making this community more active and interesting. Not on a wasteful war effort.

Also, just want to restate that we made demands and the Pacific appears to have met them. On what basis would we declare war and how would we reconcile such a declaration with our earlier demands?

 

[Cormac]

I still disagree. I've explained why I find that reasoning for having a military unconvincing. Why do we need mutual defence treaties? Interregional intervention does not end coups. These treaties honestly just provide a false sense of security.

This just isn't the case. It's true that interregional intervention sometimes doesn't end coups, but I personally participated in the interregional intervention that helped end Milograd's coup of the South Pacific in 2013. Interregional intervention could possibly have ended the 2013 coup of Osiris or the 2015 NLO coup of Lazarus, given time. We can't know for sure, obviously, but in both cases it looked promising had the resistance movements kept at it (and neither of those resistance movements had fizzled as quickly as some have, so there's no reason to automatically believe they wouldn't have kept at it). There have been examples other than these earlier in NationStates history.

Now, it's true we shouldn't depend solely on mutual defense treaties. We need to have internal security measures as well. But mutual defense treaties are important weapons in the arsenal against coups, and it would be silly to just surrender those weapons for no reason, just because they haven't always been useful. Maybe they will prove useful next time they're needed, should there be a next time (though hopefully there won't be).

It's not about how the NPO perceives us, it's about how much attention we want to give them. Your war gives them attention and relevance. I'd prefer to isolate them than continually engage with them.

Just isolating them with diplomatic sanctions has never worked long-term in the past. Why do you believe it would work now?

It's also about practical consequences. Proscription allows us to make a strong statement and take action to protect ourselves. War won't achieve anything more than that, because you are not going to destroy the NPO -- not through military gameplay anyway. I think it's silly to join the chorus of people wasting their time yelling at the wind.

I really don't understand this idea that proscription is more dangerous than war, because it's just not. You said yourself -- the NPO will likely see them as the same action anyway. I disagree that declaring war will somehow make us more vigilant. What you're saying sounds good on paper but none of it translates into reality well.

You're presenting this as an either/or decision. Of course you're right that we should proscribe them, but we should go further than that. The idea that we shouldn't respond to what is probably the worst act of aggression committed by anyone in the history of this game because it's a waste of time is just a silly argument. This is a game; the entire thing is a waste of time. I also reject the defeatist attitude that the NPO can't be defeated. It's certainly not going to happen in an update operation, but if we keep the pressure on, keep chipping away at their WA population with recruitment and propaganda, keep frustrating their leadership and its agenda, etc., etc., there is a better chance of the NPO falling than if we simply do nothing. I don't understand this mentality that the NPO can't fall because of its longevity. It's not invincible. At the end of the day, it's just a GCR government like any other, and no GCR government is invincible. No GCR government is impervious to defeat.

It's about how we want to spend our time. I think we should spend it here, at home, making this community more active and interesting. Not on a wasteful war effort.

People say that a lot, that we should spend our time here making this community more active and interesting. And yet how much of that has been happening? Prior to talk of this war, the community was pretty quiet. There wasn't much going on. This whole situation has generated interest and excitement, and more activity than we've had since right after the constitutional convention. I don't believe we should do this on activity grounds alone, but the idea that we would be better served spending time on ambiguous "community development" stuff that no one has actually been doing much of seems pretty dubious to me. Are we actually going to do that, or after we decide not to declare war is everyone just going to go back to being quiet and spending more time elsewhere than they spend in Lazarus? At least this war has brought people's attention back to Lazarus and back to this community. I'm skeptical that we're all going to spend time on whatever it is you're saying it should be spent on. If we weren't before, why will we after this?

Also, just want to restate that we made demands and the Pacific appears to have met them. On what basis would we declare war and how would we reconcile such a declaration with our earlier demands?

On the basis that they can't be trusted to actually keep the terms we requested. Everything they've done thus far is in no way new or innovative; the Emperor stepped down after the NLO, the Regent was removed from office after the NLO, Senators were dismissed and people were banned after the NLO. Many of those people were quietly reinstated later, even after carrying out further subversive activities here in Lazarus. The NPO simply cannot be trusted to keep any terms, so there's no reason we should accept them. If we do, we'll just end up right back where we started, with the NPO screwing around in Lazarus again. Maybe next time they'll be successful and finally get their permanent puppet regime here.

 

[Arlo]

Why did we set terms then, if the response wasn't going to have any effect on our position?

Doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Cormac]

Why did we set terms then, if the response wasn't going to have any effect on our position?

Doesn't seem right to me.

I don't think setting terms was wise, in hindsight. The NPO could never be trusted, so we could never really have any confidence the terms would be kept.

I don't think making a mistake by initially setting terms should prevent us from doing what's best for Lazarus now though. We shouldn't be hindered because declaring war after they met our terms might make us look bad to the NPO or their apologists in the South Pacific and elsewhere. At the end of the day, who cares what those people think about what we do? They are, at best, ambivalent about Lazarus' community and its security, and at worst they are our enemies. If they don't like that we declare war despite our terms ostensibly being met, why should we care? I don't care what the NPO or Glen-Rhodes or Tim think about it. Neither should anyone else. This decision should be made solely on the basis of what's best for Lazarus, not any image or PR considerations.

 

[DaddyStalin]

I do believe that setting terms was described more as a delay tactic to organize with other regions before potentially declaring war, but that's just me.

I will fully support war for all the aforementioned reasons Cormac provided. Even the lenient terms presented were dodged through loopholes or outright ignored.