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This will be the only thread for citizen discussion of what to do regarding recent news about TP's actions past and present, and Lazarus' response to such. Please keep it civil.
[Discussion] Regarding The Pacific
- Thread starter TempestShadow
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In my opinion we should demand that selected members of the NPO be removed from the region, including that there be a delegate change within the next week. If they do not comply, we will declare war. I don't know which leaders ought to be purged from the region, but the general principle is that anyone we think is contributing to subversion of other regions should move their WA out of the Pacific and go elsewhere, hopefully to contribute to the growth of another region besides the NPO. I don't think they will accept this, but given the extensive history of the NPO harming our region I think these are the only reasonable demands that can be made.
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I think we should do one of two things:
1) We should lodge a formal diplomatic protest, as New Rogernomics has said is in the works, but it should include clear demands from the NPO similar in nature to Osiris' demands here (though not necessarily similar in detail - we should decide our own demands). In that statement, it should be made clear that if the NPO doesn't meet said demands, the Delegate will request from the Assembly a declaration of war. And then if the NPO doesn't meet our demands, we should declare war.
2) We should just skip all that and declare war, because they're not going to meet our demands.
Under no circumstances should we simply not declare war. Lazarus is the most wronged party here. The NPO has attacked us three times:
1. Once, during the NLO coup;
2. Twice, with Task Force Lazarus, which deliberately provoked a civil war;
3. Three times, with Feux posing as Adytus, trying to seize Lazarus' Delegacy, no doubt for NLO 2.0.
Lazarus simply can't tolerate this. Lazarus has to stop just taking this stuff and being kicked around. Lazarus has to recognize that the NPO is at war with us and has been at war with us for years, and we have to respond by acknowledging their war and declaring war ourselves. Other regions are going to be looking to see how we respond, because we're the most aggrieved party. We have to stand up for ourselves instead of expecting others to stand up for us. We have to stop talking about recovering and decide to be recovered. We have to tell the NPO and anyone else who would bully Lazarus again in the future that we're not going to take it anymore. In the process, we will gain the respect of former allies looking to see what we're made of, as well as the respect of new friends. If we stand up, others will stand with us. So let's stand up and fight for this region, because it's about damn time somebody fights for it.
1) We should lodge a formal diplomatic protest, as New Rogernomics has said is in the works, but it should include clear demands from the NPO similar in nature to Osiris' demands here (though not necessarily similar in detail - we should decide our own demands). In that statement, it should be made clear that if the NPO doesn't meet said demands, the Delegate will request from the Assembly a declaration of war. And then if the NPO doesn't meet our demands, we should declare war.
2) We should just skip all that and declare war, because they're not going to meet our demands.
Under no circumstances should we simply not declare war. Lazarus is the most wronged party here. The NPO has attacked us three times:
1. Once, during the NLO coup;
2. Twice, with Task Force Lazarus, which deliberately provoked a civil war;
3. Three times, with Feux posing as Adytus, trying to seize Lazarus' Delegacy, no doubt for NLO 2.0.
Lazarus simply can't tolerate this. Lazarus has to stop just taking this stuff and being kicked around. Lazarus has to recognize that the NPO is at war with us and has been at war with us for years, and we have to respond by acknowledging their war and declaring war ourselves. Other regions are going to be looking to see how we respond, because we're the most aggrieved party. We have to stand up for ourselves instead of expecting others to stand up for us. We have to stop talking about recovering and decide to be recovered. We have to tell the NPO and anyone else who would bully Lazarus again in the future that we're not going to take it anymore. In the process, we will gain the respect of former allies looking to see what we're made of, as well as the respect of new friends. If we stand up, others will stand with us. So let's stand up and fight for this region, because it's about damn time somebody fights for it.
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The following is a slightly modified argument I made via successive posts in the Discord server, which I've posted below for everyone's convenience:
I disagree with the argument that war should be a last resort in circumstances regarding grievous and hitherto-unknown violations of sovereignty; indeed, war can be a preferable option in numerous circumstances, particularly in Lazarus' circumstances, for the following reasons:
Firstly, in a context such as this one, wherein war against the NPO is the geopolitical reality many regions have chosen to adopt, to do anything less than that makes it look like we are choosing to forge and lead a course of moderation in dealing with the NPO; not quite stuck in the middle between war and alliance (that would be true neutrality), but certainly close to it; and that is an inappropriate response because the actions against Lazarus the NPO perpetrated were not the most moderate, but rather the most extreme, more extreme than even its actions against Osiris.
Secondly, by declaring war, we open to ourselves a large swathe of allies and defenders we do not presently have, by virtue of being co-belligerents with them. This is of significant advantage to our own internal security; furthermore, it need not conflict with our own pluralist and open values, because this war is not a conflict of Independence/Raiderism vs. Defenderism/Francoism, considering XKI/TRR's comparative coolness in dealing with the NPO; it is a conflict of Anti-Francoism vs. Francoism, a wholly reasonable proposition considering Francoism's imperialist propositions.
Thirdly, war has the potential of unifying a hitherto-disparate populace by causing the existential threat to cause people to rally; by unifying the people, it will lead to immense activity. Furthermore, this very much has the possibility of, in our case, causing the creation of an active military; not only a boon in and of itself by virtue of creating activity, but a boon particularly because explicitly pluralist and non-ideological (beyond anti-Francoist) aims would be enabled by the creating circumstances.
Fourthly, and most importantly, this is a pronouncement of our own sovereignty in regards to this threat; not only will it naturally inspire immense vigilance against this threat, it will also be a mere response to acts of aggression by responding in kind.
Fifthly, there's no legitimate reason not to go to war, and to be honest, official, declared war in NS is not the inherent-but-sometimes-necessary evil it is in real life. It is, for the reasons I outlined above, in many cases a very good and positive thing in and of itself; furthermore, it does not really have the negative consequences of real-life war. There are no lives lost, no infrastructure destroyed, etc.; wars are in NationStates as propagandistic as they are militaristic. This opposition to war is a mistaken belief born out of real-life concerns, not out of pragmatic recognition of NSGP realities. The major consequence of war in NS is geopolitical, not material and biological as in real-life; and such geopolitical consequences are (A): Minimal in Lazarus' case because it presently lacks geopolitical allies, and would be compensated for with allies via co-belligerents, and (B): Minimal in any case because NS war does not seriously threaten the safety and security of regions with high Delegate counts (such as Lazarus).
I disagree with the argument that war should be a last resort in circumstances regarding grievous and hitherto-unknown violations of sovereignty; indeed, war can be a preferable option in numerous circumstances, particularly in Lazarus' circumstances, for the following reasons:
Firstly, in a context such as this one, wherein war against the NPO is the geopolitical reality many regions have chosen to adopt, to do anything less than that makes it look like we are choosing to forge and lead a course of moderation in dealing with the NPO; not quite stuck in the middle between war and alliance (that would be true neutrality), but certainly close to it; and that is an inappropriate response because the actions against Lazarus the NPO perpetrated were not the most moderate, but rather the most extreme, more extreme than even its actions against Osiris.
Secondly, by declaring war, we open to ourselves a large swathe of allies and defenders we do not presently have, by virtue of being co-belligerents with them. This is of significant advantage to our own internal security; furthermore, it need not conflict with our own pluralist and open values, because this war is not a conflict of Independence/Raiderism vs. Defenderism/Francoism, considering XKI/TRR's comparative coolness in dealing with the NPO; it is a conflict of Anti-Francoism vs. Francoism, a wholly reasonable proposition considering Francoism's imperialist propositions.
Thirdly, war has the potential of unifying a hitherto-disparate populace by causing the existential threat to cause people to rally; by unifying the people, it will lead to immense activity. Furthermore, this very much has the possibility of, in our case, causing the creation of an active military; not only a boon in and of itself by virtue of creating activity, but a boon particularly because explicitly pluralist and non-ideological (beyond anti-Francoist) aims would be enabled by the creating circumstances.
Fourthly, and most importantly, this is a pronouncement of our own sovereignty in regards to this threat; not only will it naturally inspire immense vigilance against this threat, it will also be a mere response to acts of aggression by responding in kind.
Fifthly, there's no legitimate reason not to go to war, and to be honest, official, declared war in NS is not the inherent-but-sometimes-necessary evil it is in real life. It is, for the reasons I outlined above, in many cases a very good and positive thing in and of itself; furthermore, it does not really have the negative consequences of real-life war. There are no lives lost, no infrastructure destroyed, etc.; wars are in NationStates as propagandistic as they are militaristic. This opposition to war is a mistaken belief born out of real-life concerns, not out of pragmatic recognition of NSGP realities. The major consequence of war in NS is geopolitical, not material and biological as in real-life; and such geopolitical consequences are (A): Minimal in Lazarus' case because it presently lacks geopolitical allies, and would be compensated for with allies via co-belligerents, and (B): Minimal in any case because NS war does not seriously threaten the safety and security of regions with high Delegate counts (such as Lazarus).
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We should absolutely go to war with the New Pacific Order.
1. The NPO has shown a willingness to subvert regions for their own interests, regardless of the government, They have subverted regions from us, Lazarus (they helped start last year's civil war) to Osiris (a fellow member of the GCR Sovereignty Accords at the time.)
2. As an extension to #1, the NPO is willing to subvert Lazarus at any time, including possibly right now (they helped cause the civil war last year, they pretended to support the Peacekeeper Agreement while one of their Senators was endotarting against Imki, and they've had multiple government officials infiltrate the region.)
3. Due to the above, we must make it abundantly clear that the NPO's actions towards us and our fellow Sinkers aren't tolerated, and a condemnation of their actions was obviously not enough (as shown when they were condemned for the NPO.)
4. We have to take advantage of our opportunity to neutralize the NPO threat while we have it. If they encourage another coup in, say, a year, it'll be too late to do anything about it then.
There are more reasons, but those are the main ones I wanted to state.
1. The NPO has shown a willingness to subvert regions for their own interests, regardless of the government, They have subverted regions from us, Lazarus (they helped start last year's civil war) to Osiris (a fellow member of the GCR Sovereignty Accords at the time.)
2. As an extension to #1, the NPO is willing to subvert Lazarus at any time, including possibly right now (they helped cause the civil war last year, they pretended to support the Peacekeeper Agreement while one of their Senators was endotarting against Imki, and they've had multiple government officials infiltrate the region.)
3. Due to the above, we must make it abundantly clear that the NPO's actions towards us and our fellow Sinkers aren't tolerated, and a condemnation of their actions was obviously not enough (as shown when they were condemned for the NPO.)
4. We have to take advantage of our opportunity to neutralize the NPO threat while we have it. If they encourage another coup in, say, a year, it'll be too late to do anything about it then.
There are more reasons, but those are the main ones I wanted to state.
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War is a radical move. Everyone present must agree to this fact. I hate the NPO and its foul infiltration of this region for ages now. But ask yourself this: what purpose would this serve? Can war be a practical asset? Do we have an army, or even a strategy to fight and win?
If we are mad, and we are rightfully so, then a harsh condemnation is more appropriate. For if you cannot answer these questions that I ponder to you, we should not declare such a state of affairs. War is not only an action undertaken to answer the frustrations and insults we have endured. It is a tactic onto itself, a move of radical importance.
The Twelfth Mandate is a clean slate. A rebirth. Like a Phoenix, we are born anew. Have we, not as the People's Republic of Lazarus, New Lazarene Order, Humane Republic of Lazarus, Celestial Dominion of Lazarus or the Undead Dominion, but as the Twelfth Mandate have been directly provoked to such resolute and radical act? It is overkill, I must say.
The NPO should not be welcome again, however. It, by its inherent nature, can never "right the ship". The "rogue actions" of its Senators and its state-sanctioned crimes, as it must be rightly said, demonstrate that. Perhaps a harsh condemnation, demanding the removal of top officials responsible or a statement declaring the NPO our enemy is more sufficient and appropriate?
If we are mad, and we are rightfully so, then a harsh condemnation is more appropriate. For if you cannot answer these questions that I ponder to you, we should not declare such a state of affairs. War is not only an action undertaken to answer the frustrations and insults we have endured. It is a tactic onto itself, a move of radical importance.
The Twelfth Mandate is a clean slate. A rebirth. Like a Phoenix, we are born anew. Have we, not as the People's Republic of Lazarus, New Lazarene Order, Humane Republic of Lazarus, Celestial Dominion of Lazarus or the Undead Dominion, but as the Twelfth Mandate have been directly provoked to such resolute and radical act? It is overkill, I must say.
The NPO should not be welcome again, however. It, by its inherent nature, can never "right the ship". The "rogue actions" of its Senators and its state-sanctioned crimes, as it must be rightly said, demonstrate that. Perhaps a harsh condemnation, demanding the removal of top officials responsible or a statement declaring the NPO our enemy is more sufficient and appropriate?
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Ryccia;4571 said:
Galiantus;4567 said:
Osiris tried something similar, and it seems to have failed.
New Rogernomics
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War doesn't have to be the last resort or the first resort, it can be part of a measured diplomatic response.
Hypothetically, it isn't any less powerful for a region to launch an official protest, then upon receiving an insufficient or unacceptable response, make a formal declaration of war.
Hypothetically, if we declare war on a region, we would also want defensive agreements in the works or signed, so that we aren't left out in the cold, should that region decide to retaliate.
This can take time, or it can happen swiftly. Ultimately that timetable isn't entirely up to us, but the timetable of diplomacy with other regions.
Lazarus should respond as soon as we can, but not too soon and rashly to the point our response is poorly phrased and ill-considered.
Once we have made a official response we can't just take it back and rewrite it, as it is already out there for NS to see.
Hypothetically, it isn't any less powerful for a region to launch an official protest, then upon receiving an insufficient or unacceptable response, make a formal declaration of war.
Hypothetically, if we declare war on a region, we would also want defensive agreements in the works or signed, so that we aren't left out in the cold, should that region decide to retaliate.
This can take time, or it can happen swiftly. Ultimately that timetable isn't entirely up to us, but the timetable of diplomacy with other regions.
Lazarus should respond as soon as we can, but not too soon and rashly to the point our response is poorly phrased and ill-considered.
Once we have made a official response we can't just take it back and rewrite it, as it is already out there for NS to see.
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This. Exactly this.
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We were wronged here. Seeing the past history the NPO and Lazarus have, this is not new. In my opinion, we should present a diplomatic response and clear terms. We shouldn't back down in any way. If they fail to these demands, there should be consequences. In my opinion, Osiris' statement is a good example: make clear what we want, make clear what happened and make clear what the consequences are if these demands are not met. We should decide what our demands are, and take the time to write our statement. This is not a light decision, and should be well thought out. Secondly we will need to decide what the consequences will be if the demands are not met. War might be inevitable.
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I do agree that a diplomatic statement should be lodged first before considering war. However, I do believe things should be conducted in quick fashion. Rather than responding to Osiris' demands, the NPO merely made a war rally dispatch urging their members to gain WA status and endorse Aleisyr. They are clearly not going to accept any terms.
It would be foolish to assume that war can be avoided as they clearly are preparing for it. Do exactly what NR said and use the diplomatic protest as a means to provide more time in organizing a united front between regions opposing the NPO before declaring war. This should be done with the utmost urgency.
It would be foolish to assume that war can be avoided as they clearly are preparing for it. Do exactly what NR said and use the diplomatic protest as a means to provide more time in organizing a united front between regions opposing the NPO before declaring war. This should be done with the utmost urgency.
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I do not believe that yesterday's change in NPO personnel is enough. From what I hear similar tokens of placation have been offered in the past and not led to lasting, meaningful change.
The NPO ought to present some kind of mechanical proof that their extreme regionalism has abated. Perhaps we could demand that they and their remaining allies withdraw from St Abbaddon. If they cannot offer real, tangible assurances such as that I think that war is not only reasonable but necessary in order to stabilise Lazarus. This would align us with the other sinkers, our natural allies. Whatever diplomatic statement we do make ought to be made soon before they can confuse the narrative any further.
The NPO trod on us for their own gain and the idea that we could be friendly with them any time soon is absurd.
The NPO ought to present some kind of mechanical proof that their extreme regionalism has abated. Perhaps we could demand that they and their remaining allies withdraw from St Abbaddon. If they cannot offer real, tangible assurances such as that I think that war is not only reasonable but necessary in order to stabilise Lazarus. This would align us with the other sinkers, our natural allies. Whatever diplomatic statement we do make ought to be made soon before they can confuse the narrative any further.
The NPO trod on us for their own gain and the idea that we could be friendly with them any time soon is absurd.
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We are currently opening embassies with Europe. Why are we doing this? Their founder is very pro NPO.
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34963963#p34963963
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34963963#p34963963
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