[Discussion] I'd like to be an endorsee

[New Rogernomics]

Even the Cabinet should try to stay reasonably around the cap, and they are appointees of the delegate voted in by the legislature. Procedure and security wise it is reasonable and necessary for no one to exceed the cap without being someone trusted and within the government structure. You'd want the Delegate to have the most, followed by the Vice Delegate, Council of Lazarene Security, and the Cabinet. To exceed the cap substantially inside those groups, you'd expect to need express permission from the delegate on security grounds of a perceived or temporary threat.

I don't believe that Imkiville, as yet, is appointing people to the Council of Lazazrene Security, though that should happen eventually in the future.

Though I'd think exceeding the cap by itself shouldn't be open to anyone unless they are cleared to do so as an existing member of government, in this case at least part of the CLS, or at more of a stretch, the Cabinet.

Constitutionally there is no limit to the number of members of the CLS that may be appointed by the Delegate. So what you should really be asking for Milograd, and Cormac (if I am correct on your interest), is to be a member of the CLS. Which would allow exceeding a cap on basis of official support and trust. 

Several past administrations, though we are not bound to them, quarreled over what constitutes an acceptable cap. Generally though it makes sense to have everyone below the Vice-Delegate, and then those trusted by the government below that. 

Going forward, before discussing who could exceed a cap, we'd have to establish a technical cap below the Vice-Delegate, as right now we don't really have one beyond the 120 endorsements. After that, we could set up a CLS application thread, as we'd want plenty of members in the CLS over time, which Imkiville can look at and approve (or not) for a vote.

 

[Amerion]

Woah, Amerion. I disagree with your first line completely. A member of the CLS should be loyal to the region of Lazarus and the Mandate first, not to any singular person in power.

Ahhh, yes. My mistake, my choice of words was a poor one. I second Constie's view.

 

[Ryccia]

Seeing as you have dabbled on talk that you could not promise that you will not coup, I am against this proposal of yours. I am sorry, but your history reverberates in my mind. And it shall forever, as I was literally founded in the middle of one of your coups. My apologies, I cannot trust you completely.

 

[Milograd]

I've been busy RL, but I intend to respond to every post when I can give my proper attention to them. Thanks for your patience (or indifference)!

Seeing as you have dabbled on talk that you could not promise that you will not coup, I am against this proposal of yours. I am sorry, but your history reverberates in my mind. And it shall forever, as I was literally founded in the middle of one of your coups. My apologies, I cannot trust you completely.

Let me ask you a different question then: Why do you dislike coups? What is it about coups that makes them negative for you?

I think I can change your mind about my idea.

 

[Milograd]

Woah, Amerion. I disagree with your first line completely. A member of the CLS should be loyal to the region of Lazarus and the Mandate first, not to any singular person in power.

I can confidently provide the bolded. The mandate is trickier.

I'm cool with the current mandate but that might not be true for future mandates. That's one scenario where I might overthrow the government. Of course ideally we just avoid problematic mandates by being active and not letting anyone sneak subtle or crazy shit into our laws.

 

[Ryccia]

I've been busy RL, but I intend to respond to every post when I can give my proper attention to them. Thanks for your patience (or indifference)!

Seeing as you have dabbled on talk that you could not promise that you will not coup, I am against this proposal of yours. I am sorry, but your history reverberates in my mind. And it shall forever, as I was literally founded in the middle of one of your coups. My apologies, I cannot trust you completely.

Let me ask you a different question then: Why do you dislike coups? What is it about coups that makes them negative for you?

I think I can change your mind about my idea.

Is it not obvious? First of all, I am a citizen of Lazarus, and I swear loyalty to its legitimate regime. Coup d'etats overthrow the current and legitimate regime, sometimes for petty and/or vain reasons, and causes unimaginable suffering and infighting within a community. Not to mention the purges that will happen, as well as the usual suppression of civil liberties. I refuse to allow the governments I am loyal to and the regions I belong to be subject to destruction by some plotters whom, let's face it, often just want power. I refuse that, and I will never accept that. For it is the discontinuation of an otherwise legitimate system of government that exists. Reform? No, do it inside the system, don't gulag the region. Coups are only destructive, and in the case of Lazarus and others, have caused civil wars and insurgencies. The vast majority of coups just purges one side, and leaves the other as a loyal rump state so the plotters can enjoy absolute victory and supreme command. No. I refuse to allow yet another coup to even be conspired in Lazarus or any other regions I currently reside in. I will not allow them all to crumble and fall. So, if you insist on talking on that and explicity refraining from not engaging in any coups, I am terribly sorry, but that makes me lose confidence with you for this position.

 

[Imkihca]

While I think 'Endorsees' are an interesting idea, I think it's rather hasty on both a personal and regional level to propose it currently. 

I believe we have quite a high cap compared to the other sinkers as it is already and it does take time and effort to reach it. At the time of writing this post your personal endorsement count, Milo, is 66, the cap is 120 for nations endorsing the delegate.
I'm all for regional security, spreading the influence around to prevent any future mass purges and boost our regional power but I don't see a need to be passing or raising the cap at the moment. It's pretty standard for all regions to have an endorsement cap and only the security body to be above it and I see no reason to change that for us either. It works. What would an Endorsee provide that our Mandate provided Council on Lazarene Security wouldn't? All I see is confusion for the more general or newer players by having another set of conditions they have to keep in mind and abide by when endorsing others and I'd like to encourage WA activity so I want to keep it as simple and appealing as possible.
Nations still have something to work towards, they can still endorse freely and if they prove their dedication they too could join the Council. I don't think it makes Lazarus any less of a friendly social place to keep regional security in mind though. It's realistic. To see the game with rose tinted glasses is unfortunately leaving us open to problems and I don't mean that against anyone personally but I'm sure most of us are aware of the consequences of letting your guard down too much in this game.

I'm glad people want to help support the security of Lazarus, I want us to be a strong, stable and secure region too, but I think the best way to do that is continue with our current CoLS setup and work towards that rather than add another tier to the endorsement hierarchy.
If you want to bypass the cap you have to prove your commitment to Lazarus and her people. You can't just decide you want to do it. I have yet to appoint anyone to the CoLS because I believe it is a very important role that needs the right people, proved by recent events here, so have been considering the options extremely carefully based on their actions in 'new' Lazarus since I took over, trying to give everyone a clean slate. It's not something that can just be rushed without risking a possible descent back to the chaos that came before and I don't think anybody wants that. We've worked too damn long and hard to risk it.

In the future the cap can be raised as seems suitable and fair if we can get better endorsement numbers and so on, if we can really get that area thriving then maybe the Endorsee idea could be floated again but I really just don't see a need for it now.
As always though I'm interested in reading the thoughts and responses from the region being brought up here. It's an interesting discussion.

 

[Milograd]

I really like the new look at Lazarus. It's a game not a hyper-realistic political simulation.

With that being said, there is plenty you could do that would screw up Lazarus with the additional endorsements, but if you are willing to stick to the promise that you outlined above, I see no real major issue with it.

o/

While I appreciate the frank honesty, it would be foolish for Imki to nominate someone who cannot guarantee absolute loyalty to both her and her successors (Tubb, etc).

Granted, there is a very good argument to be made to have you become a member of the CLS and then, later on in the future, to mount a successful coup so as to continue the fun of GP - but ultimately, it isn't in the interests of the 12th Mandate.

Taking a step back, security councillors couping and replacing the status quo is so meh, it's overdone - sure, it'll blow up the GP forum for however long it lasts, but there's nothing that would make me go, 'woah, that's so impressive.'

You're 100% right. That's why I'm not going to become a CLS member and coup. That's lame.

If I were to overthrow the government -- and again, that is 100% not something I intend to do -- it would be really awesome.

My advice: let the folks in charge think this proposal over and act accordingly. Trust has to be built, and the situation must be studied first.

Ah, but I'm not asking for trust. Just endorsements. Building trust would be inefficient: it takes a long time and, in the absence of a group of driven collaborators, is often is achieved by being lame. Guys who do nothing interesting are the first to be trusted. That's not best for Lazarus, in my opinion.

Even the Cabinet should try to stay reasonably around the cap, and they are appointees of the delegate voted in by the legislature. Procedure and security wise it is reasonable and necessary for no one to exceed the cap without being someone trusted and within the government structure. You'd want the Delegate to have the most, followed by the Vice Delegate, Council of Lazarene Security, and the Cabinet. To exceed the cap substantially inside those groups, you'd expect to need express permission from the delegate on security grounds of a perceived or temporary threat.

I don't believe that Imkiville, as yet, is appointing people to the Council of Lazazrene Security, though that should happen eventually in the future.

Though I'd think exceeding the cap by itself shouldn't be open to anyone unless they are cleared to do so as an existing member of government, in this case at least part of the CLS, or at more of a stretch, the Cabinet.

Constitutionally there is no limit to the number of members of the CLS that may be appointed by the Delegate. So what you should really be asking for Milograd, and Cormac (if I am correct on your interest), is to be a member of the CLS. Which would allow exceeding a cap on basis of official support and trust.

Then I will do that. This is now a discussion about making myself (and Cormac, if he's still interested) CLS members. Let's roll! o/

I've been busy RL, but I intend to respond to every post when I can give my proper attention to them. Thanks for your patience (or indifference)!

Seeing as you have dabbled on talk that you could not promise that you will not coup, I am against this proposal of yours. I am sorry, but your history reverberates in my mind. And it shall forever, as I was literally founded in the middle of one of your coups. My apologies, I cannot trust you completely.

Let me ask you a different question then: Why do you dislike coups? What is it about coups that makes them negative for you?

I think I can change your mind about my idea.

Is it not obvious? First of all, I am a citizen of Lazarus, and I swear loyalty to its legitimate regime. Coup d'etats overthrow the current and legitimate regime, sometimes for petty and/or vain reasons, and causes unimaginable suffering and infighting within a community. Not to mention the purges that will happen, as well as the usual suppression of civil liberties. I refuse to allow the governments I am loyal to and the regions I belong to be subject to destruction by some plotters whom, let's face it, often just want power. I refuse that, and I will never accept that. For it is the discontinuation of an otherwise legitimate system of government that exists. Reform? No, do it inside the system, don't gulag the region. Coups are only destructive, and in the case of Lazarus and others, have caused civil wars and insurgencies. The vast majority of coups just purges one side, and leaves the other as a loyal rump state so the plotters can enjoy absolute victory and supreme command. No. I refuse to allow yet another coup to even be conspired in Lazarus or any other regions I currently reside in. I will not allow them all to crumble and fall. So, if you insist on talking on that and explicity refraining from not engaging in any coups, I am terribly sorry, but that makes me lose confidence with you for this position.

"Loyalty to its legitimate regime" is a tricky thing. What if the legitimate regime becomes rotten?

I simply refuse to promise that I'll obey a piece of paper without regard for what is on it, because that would be reckless. What if the legitimate government of Lazarus bans players who, RL, are gingers? Should I abandon the Gingers because the mandate says so?

No. I should try to get rid of the anti-ginger law. If that fails, I should seriously consider overthrowing the government, because discrimination against red-haired "people" isn't cool.

My example is a comic one, but I hope you seriously see my point.

What would an Endorsee provide that our Mandate provided Council on Lazarene Security wouldn't?

[...]

If you want to bypass the cap you have to prove your commitment to Lazarus and her people. You can't just decide you want to do it. I have yet to appoint anyone to the CoLS because I believe it is a very important role that needs the right people, proved by recent events here, so have been considering the options extremely carefully based on their actions in 'new' Lazarus since I took over, trying to give everyone a clean slate. It's not something that can just be rushed without risking a possible descent back to the chaos that came before and I don't think anybody wants that. We've worked too damn long and hard to risk it.

In the future the cap can be raised as seems suitable and fair if we can get better endorsement numbers and so on, if we can really get that area thriving then maybe the Endorsee idea could be floated again but I really just don't see a need for it now.
As always though I'm interested in reading the thoughts and responses from the region being brought up here. It's an interesting discussion.

Having made the above clarifications, I want to be on the CLS. And I think Cormac would be great too.

I don't think it is best that I try to prove my commitment or loyalty. As NS approaches two decades of age, players have become increasingly comfortable with spending long amounts of time "waiting" on things, because time seems relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of the game's history. Waiting five months to see if a good player sticks around is bad business.

Having said that, may I offer you a couple outside-the-box proposals that might help convince you to support my ideas about the CLS? I'm asking because I wouldn't to write anything serious up otherwise, obviously.

 

[Ryccia]

My reasons stand, Milograd. I support the current regime, and do not wish it to see it overthrown. Persons who state such provocative ideas are not good candidates for the trust of our current government.