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Discussion Motion of Removal: The Vice Delegate

Constie

Constie

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Lazarus
Mr. Speaker.

I motion to invoke Article I, Section 6 of Mandate Twelve to Remove the Vice Delegate

"(7) The Assembly may remove the Delegate or Vice Delegate from office by three-quarters vote"
 
I don't think that this is an appropriate response to the issues facing our region.
 
Reductio ad absurdum isn't the most beneficial response in my eyes, but it seems so far most active members are against this. Is anyone even for this motion?

Can anyone outline their thoughts besides an empty "yes" or a "no"?
 
Frankender said:
Reductio ad absurdum isn't the most beneficial response in my eyes, but it seems so far most active members are against this. Is anyone even for this motion?

Can anyone outline their thoughts besides an empty "yes" or a "no"?
Click to expand...
Yes. I will do my best to articulate my concerns here, more or less as a reply to all three threads JL made on the removal of whoever is in charge.

While calling for the removal of the better part of our security apparatus and our executive leadership might cause uproar and outrage for a while, it in no way addresses any issues on a serious level. It raises no suggestions for sustained growth or activity, it does not invite long-term activity beyond causing issues within the region surrounding leadership, and it is frankly a very poor way to get people to discuss whatever issue you are actually raising. This isn't a new thing, but it remains disappointing nonetheless. I am assuming it is meant to start discussions on our activity and what not, but frankly this is just distracting and drama-mongering. It is also fairly petty.

I think concerned citizens replying simply with "yes" or "no" is not particularly less productive or more petty than the creation of the threads in the first place. That said, I think actually productive discussions are ongoing in the Discord at the moment - weighing in on that discussion is very much welcome, and could possibly help us move forward. The departments are also eternally looking for committed citizens to join up and help out, so if you're willing to work for driving activity, that would also be a productive and welcome initiative.

Obviously, I'm a part of the current Cabinet so feel free to write off my concerns as 'biased' or something along those lines.
 
Awesome, thank your for your thoughtful response.

Also good to hear discussions are going on in discord as I am not involved there!

I agree with you that removing these people will not solve the long term issue of inactivity
 
joWhatup said:
Yes. I will do my best to articulate my concerns here, more or less as a reply to all three threads JL made on the removal of whoever is in charge.

While calling for the removal of the better part of our security apparatus and our executive leadership might cause uproar and outrage for a while, it in no way addresses any issues on a serious level. It raises no suggestions for sustained growth or activity, it does not invite long-term activity beyond causing issues within the region surrounding leadership, and it is frankly a very poor way to get people to discuss whatever issue you are actually raising. This isn't a new thing, but it remains disappointing nonetheless. I am assuming it is meant to start discussions on our activity and what not, but frankly this is just distracting and drama-mongering. It is also fairly petty.

I think concerned citizens replying simply with "yes" or "no" is not particularly less productive or more petty than the creation of the threads in the first place. That said, I think actually productive discussions are ongoing in the Discord at the moment - weighing in on that discussion is very much welcome, and could possibly help us move forward. The departments are also eternally looking for committed citizens to join up and help out, so if you're willing to work for driving activity, that would also be a productive and welcome initiative.

Obviously, I'm a part of the current Cabinet so feel free to write off my concerns as 'biased' or something along those lines.
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I very much agree with Jo. At best this is an attempt to generate outrage clicks based on the frankly farcical notion that drama = activity, which anyone who has spent as long on NS as JL has knows is utter nonsense. At worst this is a cynical ploy to force through JL's desired connotational amendments by holding the regional security apparatus hostage until the region moves in the direction they desire. I like to think out of respect for JL that it is the former. JL calls for the region to drink the Kool Aid in the name of "accountability" under the claim that this recall will force the government to account for the current state of activity. This is disproportionate in the extreme, as I said on the discord, using a recall to allegedly force accountability instead of just making a thread with some questions is akin to mugging your best friend over £10 because you're in a bad way, when they would have given it to you if you had just asked. Personally I believe that there is now an argument for looking at how recalls can be triggered, potentially a requirement for a minimum number of co-petitioners before a discussion can start, to stop further abuse of the system.
 
Frankender said:
Awesome, thank your for your thoughtful response.

Also good to hear discussions are going on in discord as I am not involved there!

I agree with you that removing these people will not solve the long term issue of inactivity
Click to expand...
It might be worth publishing a thread here, both to gather some important takeaways from the discord dicussion (with the way discord works, important things may be lost in the flurry of messages) and to give an opportunity to forum denizens uninvolved in the discord to weigh in.
 
I think the discussions we've seen since all the threads have been posted have proven me right. If you had read anything, I said from the get go that this wasn't about removing people, but holding people to account using the legislation in place to do so, using the legal procedures we've made. The burst of activity has proven me correct in that these threads have forced the region by and large to address many different issues and actually discuss the direction of the region as a whole, something that hasn't been discussed before.

Was this controversial? Yes, absolutely. But did it cause activity and a critical look at our system? Yes, yes it did. If someone needed to be the "bad guy" to take this route to get people to talk about issues and to discuss what's going on in our region then I am okay with that. I am okay with being the bad guy. I'd rather be the bad, controversial guy in an active Lazarus than an eternally respected and loved guy in a dead one."
 
Constie said:
I think the discussions we've seen since all the threads have been posted have proven me right. If you had read anything, I said from the get go that this wasn't about removing people, but holding people to account using the legislation in place to do so, using the legal procedures we've made. The burst of activity has proven me correct in that these threads have forced the region by and large to address many different issues and actually discuss the direction of the region as a whole, something that hasn't been discussed before.

Was this controversial? Yes, absolutely. But did it cause activity and a critical look at our system? Yes, yes it did. If someone needed to be the "bad guy" to take this route to get people to talk about issues and to discuss what's going on in our region then I am okay with that. I am okay with being the bad guy. I'd rather be the bad, controversial guy in an active Lazarus than an eternally respected and loved guy in a dead one."
Click to expand...
Constie, that is a nonsense of an argument, the cognitive dissonance required to believe that this has been at all productive is baffling. You have been around long enough to know that drama, which is what this is, is not real activity, trying to use drama to drive activity just creates a toxic hellhole and it saddens me greatly that you are willing to flush the community harmony and stability that has been achieved over the past few years down the drain, just to generate outrage clicks. This is not the sort of activity a healthy region has or needs, and if you genuinely think toxic political drama for outrage clicks is the sort of activity Lazarus needs, you clearly do not have a clue what you are talking about.
 
I think you're confusing harmony and stability with inactivity. Of course there's stability and harmony and peace when no one is really doing much at all. And you're the only one here throwing any insults around, so rather than doing this, why not take in what's around you and see that people are discussing the future of Lazarus and why not join in on it?
 
To build on what JL brings up, I have made this very clear before, but I'd rather take instability over inactivity
 
First of all, I would like to thank all of the Lazarenes that have stood behind me all these years or accepted me as Vice-Delegate, even when we've disagreed over policy and the future of the region.

It hasn't been always easy, as Lazarus went through a messy civil war and issues that came after it, which means at least some will be unhappy with the direction of the region, but our current mandate has meant stability and security, which is certainly been my main objective for these years as Vice-Delegate, though it appears that I am being asked to expand my role. So does expanding my role into politics necessitate a recall? I do not believe it does, but nevertheless if I am being asked to campaign, this is not my first election, and I have both ambition and experience to share with the region, if I am being asked to move into a wider political role.

Though what people want to hear is what I plan to do in this new expanding political role, as the Assembly, and the region would like of me to do. So here is my platform:

New Rogernomics for Vice-Delegate

Stands for SNIP:
Security with no drama, and that means we don't get a coup, unless we vote for one. ;)
Go Buffalo Ny GIF by Daemen College

No to idiocracy, as I'll trade good sense over the naïve, and if I think an idea is terrible, I'll definitely let you know, and I'll expect the same in return if my ideas don't work out.

shooting terry crews GIF by Idiocracy


Not what I'll do once I win the recall, I promise...

Insight into issues and foreign policy, as I've been in elected and appointed in Lazarus, and in UCRs, and as the saying might go, "you have to live it to understand it". I've lived with the victories and the major defeats, I've been a defender and stood behind the FRA against heated opposition, I've supported raiders, and I've stood behind bad regions and good ones. I wouldn't say I have done it all, but I know what our "enemies" are, who our friends are, and the realities of NationStates, such as the reality that as long as we stay neutral, or join a faction, we will have folks that love us, hate us, or want to change us.

Cat Sunglasses GIF


Policy and goals that are practical and can be realized. I won't promise you something I believe I can't do, and if I can't do something it will be because some event happened in my life...like exams, or a crisis of some kind.

airplane movie GIF

So lets SNIP together at inactivity! :catglaresip:​


On the recall itself...

I also do have to address the implications of a recall, which I do not feel is necessary, as there are alternatives in the legislature that could be explored first, like what we would do with Delegate elections, how would we resolve the issue of not being the target of a coup right away, and so on...and until these issues are addressed, there is only one outcome, and it is not unicorns and rainbows, but anarchy, disorder, and opportunity to bring down more than just a Delegate, or Vice-Delegate, but the region itself. That means game over for everyone in the Assembly, and probably a real dictatorship, as in disorder and anarchy, the democrats and libertarians rarely win, and the hardline authoritarians that break all the rules often triumph. Lazarus didn't get stuck with hardline authoritarians, and Imki didn't try to be one, nor does Tubbius, nor does myself. But the problem of changing something without a direction, and without an alternative candidate, is that you don't know what will happen, and that scares people away, and we should really be going towards certainty about our future, as well as having activity.

Many also probably want to know what I think about my role so far, as if we go by definitions in the mandate there is no duty there that hasn't been fulfilled. We are a stable region as far as holding the Delegacy, our endorsement caps, even if we lower them a bit are still higher than many of the other comparable sinkers, and regular votes are held to adjust the endorsement caps, and expel threats to the region, of which you can read a record of here, including ridding the region of fascist infiltrators.

The Vice-Delegacy also includes the more covert or harder to define areas of looking out for threats of a kind that could coup or seek to undermine the region, such as in-game through endorsements, political, or by means of infiltration by hostile actors. I certainly think recalling me will result in a loss of knowledge and understanding of not only many of the threats from the current Lazarus, but also from the past regimes I have participated in, from the regimes before the People's Republic of Lazarus, the threats the People's Republic of Lazarus faced, and then the threats the Humane Republic and Celestial Union also faced.

TLDR; there is a major the security side of being Vice-Delegate, which is a tedious and unrewarding job, trying to look out for hidden agendas, as well as try and form trust, isn't easy as you will make mistakes and even upset people in pursuit of a secure region.

On the future direction of the Delegacy...

I think it is clear that there needs to be changes, and I've listened to those on discord that want us to have a Vice-Delegate and Delegate more involved in the political goings on of the region, and to have clear views on what direction the region should go in.

Foreign Policy
  • I have accepted the direction that past Prime Ministers, and their Cabinets have taken, and I do not intend to dispute they had our best interests at heart. Though I think also circumstances change, and how we determine our foreign policy can change, and this is the case of the New Pacific Order, and I also think there are UCR and GCR regions still left unexplored and unnoticed by us. We need to outreach more to these regions, as we've sort of developed a small bubble of GCRs, and not really tried to expand beyond that to date. I think more outreach and expansion of our friendly regions would be a good idea for the future.
  • Peace with the New Pacific Order, and a Non-Aggression Pact, would allow us to pursue cultural events with them, and work with the NPO in the WA over mutual resolutions, even if we do not intend to open embassies and allow them in as citizens.
  • Balder is one area where we are yet to make ourselves noticed, and we should really pursue a Non-Aggression Pact with them, and burry the hatchet. The Humane Republic and Celestial Union may have had a cold war with Balder, but that is not us now, and I don't think it helps either region to not form a cordiale relationship, if not friendship.
  • Decide how we approach R/D, as I don't think neutrality is going to hold forever. We need to decide whether we will allow volunteering for defense operations or raids.
  • We are falling behind our treaty obligations with festivals, and while I don't think every region is going to be upset with us on this, they will think less of us and have far less contact with us if we don't at least try and have them from time to time.
Domestic Policy
  • There is an intersecting part of my administrative duties, and the Vice-Delegacy, in that there are forum features that can help us expand into role-playing and other cultural activities, and I think that we should be having a regular role-play every week on the forum at least, even if it is a casual one that people can just joke around and have fun with. This is certainly something I am going to push for.
  • The Lazarene Gazette has fallen on hard times since I left as editor, and if I don't return as editor outright, I'll certainly be pushing for an active Gazette. That means we need to get an issue out each month, and as others have suggested try for more frequent articles, and maybe even interviews. This is our voice on the world stage so to speak, so we shouldn't waste the opportunity to show others what is happening Lazarus, and what we are like.
  • Since we are talking about expanding political roles, this will likely mean I need to talk to Ministers and the Prime Minister more, on what is happening, and engage with them on more projects.
  • We need festivals at a local level to boost activity, and we could do in-game events which alter the WFE, and offer badges and awards to those that win those events.
On Security and Stability vs Activity...

I don't really buy that we can't have all three at the same time, nor that we have to compromise on security and stability to have activity. If we want to work towards activity, it has to be a three-pronged approach that understands that we do need activity, but we also need to ensure we don't get a coup, and lose everything we have achieved, or as happened to the Celestial Union, become so divided as a community that we have a civil war and foreign infiltrators are allowed to tear us apart. When we have all three Lazarus will be an even more awesome place to be, and I don't see reason why we should abandon one plank in assumed support of the other. Activity does not have to be abandoned to have stability or security, which you can see in our other GCR neighbors, and UCR neighbors, who haven't traded one plank to the detriment of another. I believe we can do this without needing to cut off our nose to spite our face.

So I hope you all vote nay or abstain on my recall, and continue to Mmmph! :Mmph!:

Signed,

3.jpg

New Rogernomics
Vice-Delegate of Lazarus
Former Delegate
 
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Is this going to be motioned to vote, so we can get this over with?
 
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