Proposal to Grant Voting Rights to Long Term Residents

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Proposal to Grant Voting Rights to Long Term Residents
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 24 2015, 11:34 PM (420 Views)
Kazmr	Apr 24 2015, 11:34 PM Post #1
Lazarene Posts: 987 Group: Members Member #85 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral	I'm making this a separate thread because I don't think its really getting proper discussion buried at the bottom of the constitutional draft. I've made it clear that I believe that we should seriously consider giving residents of the gameside region a voice in the actual running, without necessarily requiring them to join the forum. A number of long term residents played a part, whether it was offering to be an endorsement target or simply draining substantial amounts of Stujenske's influence, and I think there needs to be a reward for that, even if they don't necessarily play the game our way. Thus, I have created a proposal that would allow long term residents of the region to have a real stake in regional affairs. Who would be potentially eligible? Individuals who are among the 300 longest consecutive residents in the region, and potentially those granted the right by vote of the legislature (for instance someone who would have been in this category were it not for a coup ejecting them) How do we prevent manipulation? First off, an individual must be currently in the World Assembly and endorsing the delegate. This helps ensure 'one person, one vote'. Second off, to vote for anything, they must have been ELIGIBLE throughout the entire course of discussion for it, from first proposal to the actual vote being passed or rejected. Thus, the nation must have been in the WA and endorsing the delegate when a bill first has a thread created in congress, throughout all discussion, and until the vote closes. To vote for an elected official, they must have been eligible and endorsing when nominations first opened, or something similar. Thus, anyone who wanted to maintain a sleeper in the region to have voting power would not only have to wait a year, they would have to continuously maintain an endorsement on the delegate in case some bill arose. I find it hard to imagine that someone would be dedicated enough to permanently park their WA here, but go short of the forums itself, just to manipulate the region. Finally, we can extend criminal prosecution to these individuals. If they break the regional law, they lose their right to vote and face ejection. This one may be a bit tricker to enforce, I will admit, and I welcome proposals to help ensure it. How would we know who is eligible? I have already written a short script that quickly identifies those nations meeting the conditions. It would be a very simple matter to maintain a table in a database that is added to daily with nations eligible on that day, and a simple front end to easily access records for any day. How do we keep these people from overruling the forum every time? IF you take a look at this post, I demonstrated that there are currently 17 nations in the region who would be eligible under the proposal here (300 nations). This corresponds to roughly a year in the region. A handful of those are defender sleepers active in present operations. I think that it is reasonably to expect that many of these nations would not vote. Thus, this is not an absolutely overwhelming number of voters, nor will it be logistically unwieldy. How do we keep them informed I have two separate ideas on that. One would be to maintain a dispatch with bills or officials currently up for vote, and a list of the nations eligible on it, as well as a nation to TG votes to. They can also TG someone with their intent to run for election if we so chose to grant that right. The other would be to telegram eligible nations whenever something goes up to vote. As the number is not really that high, I don't think that this would be a logistical nightmare. Further, it would be possible to create some sort of auto-TG tool using the API to inform eligible nations of votes. I am willing to publicly post any of the code used to maintain such a system so that it does not die with me. IT is also possible to keep the constitutional language enabling this system vague on the technical mechanics so as to not be locked into this specific flow. I welcome disagreement (or maybe even agreement), and would like suggestions.

Replies:
Ravania	Apr 25 2015, 11:59 AM Post #11
Sensei of Rebirth Posts: 3,150 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: Apr 22, 2015	I can understand that some people, for various reasons, don't want to join an off-site forum. But when they join, I can't understand why there has to be a different masking for citizens and long-time residents. I resided in Laz for a few years now (non-WA, except when needed or asked), I wouldn't know why I should have a different masking on this forum. As for people who don't want a forum-account, I guess if they are true Lazarenes they can PM someone to voice their concerns on one or other matter on the forum. I would be willing to do so if needed. I don't know what the conditions are/will be to lose citizenship, but maybe we could set a rule that if your WA remains in the region endorsing the delegate you can't lose citizenship, even if you're not active on the forum.



Kazmr	Apr 25 2015, 05:58 PM Post #12
Lazarene Posts: 987 Group: Members Member #85 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral	@rav: The current masking exists because legally under PRL constitution we can't arbitrarily give citizenship if they don't apply, but we want these people to be able to have a say in the constitutional process so we made a masking that would allow that. @Gulliver: I think I mentioned perhaps either creating an auto-tg tool (or just manually tging) when things are up for vote, or asking someone (leguslature speaker or designated outreach person) to maintain something like a dispatch existing proposal/votes with a link to discussion so they can get context. For actual votes, in those communications designate a nation that they can TG their votes to.



Powthran	Apr 25 2015, 07:12 PM Post #13
Lazarene Posts: 523 Group: Members Member #103 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Lawful Neutral Military Stance Uninterested Political Views Conservative Nation in Lazarus Powthran	I think this is a great idea and would help bridge the gap between th forum and the gamesite. Kazmr seems to have the mechanics of this well thought out and prepared. Some of these people have earned it and some others may be great boon to have as well. They will only have this right if the constitution says so, which I believe would make Lazarus stand out for enfranchising these nations. I would be bold statement for democracy.



Funkadelia	Apr 25 2015, 07:45 PM Post #14
Posts: 2,155 Group: King of the Undead Member #86 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Socialist Nation in Lazarus Funkadelia	Kazmr the point is that Ravania doesn't see why they can't just apply. They've already made the step to joining the forum so why not just fill out the application? It only takes s few minutes.



Myroria	Apr 25 2015, 07:54 PM Post #15
Revolutionary Posts: 186 Group: Vessel of Iniquity Member #4 Joined: Apr 8, 2015 Military Stance Uninterested Political Views Communist	I don't really see the point of trying to incorporate the gameside into this. The apparatus one would have to devise to make it practical would defeat the purpose of making it quick and easy for them to participate anyway. I agree with BenevolentThomas that if someone is that concerned about forumside politics they should just get citizenship and only vote on issues they care about, rather than have the political structure of the region depend on people who, for the most part, have little interest in it.



Funkadelia	Apr 25 2015, 09:23 PM Post #16
Posts: 2,155 Group: King of the Undead Member #86 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Socialist Nation in Lazarus Funkadelia	Benevolent Thomas Apr 25 2015, 02:23 AM I just don't see why they can't make a forum account. I mean they don't even have to be active forum participants. Just apply for citizenship and log in when its been announced that there is a vote going on. You see a long-time citizen and I see a long-time apathetic resident. "ugh, I gotta click one one extra link to have my voice heard? Nah, I'm cool just answering my issues..." Ivo Apr 25 2015, 03:01 AM I agree with the sentiments of BT. I wouldn't use the word "dedicated" to describe the majority of long-term Lazarene natives. Most, if not all, are content with answering issues and voting in the WA. Neither of you really have a place to say that. How long have you both been in Lazarus? You both seem pretty content to just ignore a big part of the region, with some nations perfectly dedicated to protecting the region because they live here after all. Just because you both recently made forum accounts in Lazarus doesn't mean you have the right to enforce superiority over the nations that have been here for a lot longer.



Ivo	Apr 25 2015, 10:01 PM Post #17
Lazarene Posts: 70 Group: Persona Non Grata Member #24 Joined: Apr 9, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral	Quote: Neither of you really have a place to say that. How long have you both been in Lazarus? You misunderstand me. This doesn't apply only to Lazarus. I'm not saying that they're aren't any nations perfectly dedicated to protecting their region. I'm saying that there are people who are content with minding their own business. For my first two years on NS, what did I do? I logged on every four or five days to answer issues, I was in the WA endorsing the delegate, but would I consider myself dedicated to the protection of TNP? Nah. I ignored region-wide telegrams and I didn't participate in any region-wide events. As long as I kept my shiny badges for ranking in the top 5% in whatever category, I was alright with anything happening to the region. If something can be worked out to engage willing, long-term residents in Lazarus to participate, then by all means go for it. Quote: Just because you both recently made forum accounts in Lazarus doesn't mean you have the right to enforce superiority over the nations that have been here for a lot longer. An opinion was stated. If everyone had the same opinion for everything, then it wouldn't be a democracy now, would it? Edited by Ivo, Apr 25 2015, 10:02 PM.



Kazmr	Apr 25 2015, 10:18 PM Post #18
Lazarene Posts: 987 Group: Members Member #85 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral	Ivo Apr 25 2015, 10:01 PM Quote: Neither of you really have a place to say that. How long have you both been in Lazarus? You misunderstand me. This doesn't apply only to Lazarus. I'm not saying that they're aren't any nations perfectly dedicated to protecting their region. I'm saying that there are people who are content with minding their own business. For my first two years on NS, what did I do? I logged on every four or five days to answer issues, I was in the WA endorsing the delegate, but would I consider myself dedicated to the protection of TNP? Nah. I ignored region-wide telegrams and I didn't participate in any region-wide events. As long as I kept my shiny badges for ranking in the top 5% in whatever category, I was alright with anything happening to the region. If something can be worked out to engage willing, long-term residents in Lazarus to participate, then by all means go for it. Quote: Just because you both recently made forum accounts in Lazarus doesn't mean you have the right to enforce superiority over the nations that have been here for a lot longer. An opinion was stated. If everyone had the same opinion for everything, then it wouldn't be a democracy now, would it? The point is, said long term Lazarenes WANT to participate and that's exactly what this proposal is designed to do. And, as I said, they were willing to put themselves forward to protect the region. Loftegen, for instance, volunteered information over the years related to people who wanted to use her to coup the government. Track and Courlany were willing to risk banjection by the NLO in order to give us a better chance of succeeding. Further, to address specifically Myroria's point, the forum government doesn't just effect those on the forum. It directly has an impact on the way they want to play. They use the RMB, and an oppressive government or instability diminished their ability to do so. They are limited in, say, endorsements because the forum government tells them they have to. They risk being ejected, preventing them from getting that badge Ivo mentions, because they disagree with forum users. Furthermore, the 'apparatus' to make this work is really not that complex. Identifying those eligible is not a complex issue, and informing them would simply require either an auto-tg script (not that complicated) or maintaining a dispatch pinned to the WFE. Neither of those is necessarily difficult to maintain.



Cormac	Apr 25 2015, 10:36 PM Post #19
Lazarene Posts: 398 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Apr 8, 2015 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Cormactopia II Skype cormac.ns Discord Cormac#9408	I agree with Kazmr. The idea that the forum government only affects the forum community is incorrect, and letting the forum government dominate the on-site community is the reverse policy of regimes like the NPO and TWP that let the on-site Delegate dominate the forum community. It's just as bad. There needs to be more balance and better integration of the entire regional community, so that everyone feels well represented by regional government. We should do so with a mind toward security, but not with a mind toward forum user elitism. Additionally, Ivo, you're entitled to your opinion but anyone, including Funkadelia, is entitled to critique it. I think opinions that disagree with this proposal can be stated much more sensitively and respectfully than some in this thread have stated them. Some of the longtime WA residents we're talking about have now registered on this forum and the last thing we should want them to see is forum players who just arrived saying that they pretty much don't care about the region for which they just fought and risked ejection and ban. Additionally, in regard to Ravania's comments, I think we should consider that some longtime natives do not want to fill out a "citizenship and party application" for the People's Republic of Lazarus. Not everyone is comfortable with the association of Feux, Milograd, Stujenske, et al., in constructing that government either, and the sooner it's replaced by something the entire regional community can get behind, the better.



Myroria	Apr 25 2015, 10:42 PM Post #20
Revolutionary Posts: 186 Group: Vessel of Iniquity Member #4 Joined: Apr 8, 2015 Military Stance Uninterested Political Views Communist	Kazmr Apr 25 2015, 10:18 PM Further, to address specifically Myroria's point, the forum government doesn't just effect those on the forum. It directly has an impact on the way they want to play. They use the RMB, and an oppressive government or instability diminished their ability to do so. They are limited in, say, endorsements because the forum government tells them they have to. They risk being ejected, preventing them from getting that badge Ivo mentions, because they disagree with forum users. Furthermore, the 'apparatus' to make this work is really not that complex. Identifying those eligible is not a complex issue, and informing them would simply require either an auto-tg script (not that complicated) or maintaining a dispatch pinned to the WFE. Neither of those is necessarily difficult to maintain. Alright; you've (mostly) convinced me. Trying won't hurt, and I was more opposed for practical reasons than on principle. And in the end, if it doesn't work out, it's better to have a failed experiment than none at all.



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