Point of Order on Prelate Elections

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Point of Order on Prelate Elections
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 15 2017, 07:36 PM (948 Views)
Aumelodia	Jul 15 2017, 07:36 PM Post #1
🌺 His Divine Eminence Posts: 584 Group: Accused Member #495 Joined: Dec 20, 2016 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Aumelodia Discord Somyrion#8047	Cathedral of the Stars Celestial Being I bring a point of order to the attention of the Convenor: regarding the recent votes on the elections of the Church of Satan and Killer Kitty. According to a ruling of the Celestial Inquisitorial Court, June 23, a prelate nomination taking place outside of the renewal of the Universal Cycle constitutes a Special Election. Therefore, a nomination taking place within the Renewal logically must be a regular election. The Elections Act specifies a rule on new citizens voting in elections: Elections Act 8) A citizen whose application was accepted during a regular or special election cycle is unable to cast a vote in said election. The votes on the Church of Satan and Killer Kitty were counted with the votes of citizens who were accepted during the voting period. I request the Convenor look into the validity of these recent votes. In addition, until this point of order shall be satisfied, and in order to uphold clearly mandated governance, I, Aumelodia, as the Divine Representative of the Order of Stars, do refuse my assent to the election of Killer Kitty as Prelate.

Replies:
Pherttsylvania	Jul 17 2017, 04:32 PM Post #31
Lazarene Posts: 82 Group: Accused Member #435 Joined: Sep 17, 2016 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Pherttsylvania	Lamb Jul 17 2017, 03:57 PM We are not okay with it, that's why we're passing an amendment so that it cannot happen again. I think you're kind of being a little too dramatic about this. Seriously? Come on, Lamb, you can't keep having things both ways. I mean weren't you the main proponent for pushing through the fastest possible resolution to the 'great court crisis' in the first place?



Omega	Jul 17 2017, 04:37 PM Post #32
Star Lord Posts: 272 Group: Accused Member #192 Joined: Sep 12, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Omega Ambassador 1 Discord Omega	The sanctity of the Court was compromised. If saying that and being honest about that is over dramatic then I am ashamed to be a part of this region.



Lamb	Jul 17 2017, 04:43 PM Post #33
Posts: 884 Group: Regent Member #387 Joined: Aug 7, 2016 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Anarchist Nation in Lazarus Scum	Pherttsylvania Jul 17 2017, 04:32 PM Lamb Jul 17 2017, 03:57 PM We are not okay with it, that's why we're passing an amendment so that it cannot happen again. I think you're kind of being a little too dramatic about this. Seriously? Come on, Lamb, you can't keep having things both ways. I mean weren't you the main proponent for pushing through the fastest possible resolution to the 'great court crisis' in the first place? I'm not sure what your angle is. While everyone is complaining about the law, I'm the one who proposed the solution to our Council to fix it and have already said that that should be the priority. This is a completely different context than our Prelates residing illegally, as was the situation before. By the way, it can be motioned and seconded in about two hours I think, feel free to contribute as I won't be around.



Pherttsylvania	Jul 17 2017, 04:51 PM Post #34
Lazarene Posts: 82 Group: Accused Member #435 Joined: Sep 17, 2016 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Pherttsylvania	Lamb Jul 17 2017, 04:43 PM I'm not sure what your angle is. While everyone is complaining about the law, I'm the one who proposed the solution to our Council to fix it and have already said that that should be the priority. This is a completely different context than our Prelates residing illegally, as was the situation before. By the way, it can be motioned and seconded in about two hours I think, feel free to contribute as I won't be around. My angle is that you are frequently more dramatic than those you accuse of being dramatic.



Lamb	Jul 17 2017, 04:55 PM Post #35
Posts: 884 Group: Regent Member #387 Joined: Aug 7, 2016 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Anarchist Nation in Lazarus Scum	Pherttsylvania Jul 17 2017, 04:51 PM Lamb Jul 17 2017, 04:43 PM I'm not sure what your angle is. While everyone is complaining about the law, I'm the one who proposed the solution to our Council to fix it and have already said that that should be the priority. This is a completely different context than our Prelates residing illegally, as was the situation before. By the way, it can be motioned and seconded in about two hours I think, feel free to contribute as I won't be around. My angle is that you are frequently more dramatic than those you accuse of being dramatic. Because following the word of the law is dramatic? Perhaps when it's this poorly written. We can't just pretend the holes in our law don't exist, otherwise they'll never be fixed. Again, your angle is what here? Edited by Lamb, Jul 17 2017, 04:55 PM.



The Church of Satan	Jul 17 2017, 05:08 PM Post #36
I HAVE CHORTLES! Posts: 861 Group: Accused Member #7 Joined: Apr 8, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Lazarus CoS	You don't seem to have an issue with loopholes when you benefit from them. When it's inconvenient for you it becomes a problem in need of fixing.



Harmoneia	Jul 17 2017, 05:14 PM Post #37
Mhysa Posts: 657 Group: Accused Member #42 Joined: Apr 11, 2015 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Harmoneia	Amerion Jul 17 2017, 02:42 AM Since we are talking about 'points,' I'd like to make my own 'point' The Celestial Being may withhold his/her assent, as per the CMA. Aumelodia utilised his celestial prerogative. A prerogative which is applicable as per Article III ((3) (f); with the C.B. having the mandate to [appoint] Prelates on the advice of the Cosmic Council. While not commenting on the reason behind the matter, I state categorically that it is entirely within the authority of the Celestial Being to do so. The C.M.A is unambiguous in this regard; Article VI (6-7) states the following: [the] Cosmic Council shall, at the Renewal of the Universal Cycle, elect from amongst its membership, Prelate-nominees … [the] Celestial Being shall, at his discretion, grant these nominees through blessing, power to adjudicate with his celestial authority. I note in particular the phrase, at his discretion. The persons so nominated by the Council are precisely that, nominees, who await the assent of the Celestial Being to take their seat on the bench. Why are people ignoring this? This seems to actually settle the case. Quote: at his discretion, grant these nominees through blessing, power to adjudicate Seems pretty clear. So while I think the Mandate is not clear on whether or not he is Prelate (if he is, then he is so only by name and still can't do his duties), it's nevertheless pretty clear, and not just a matter of interpretation, that he can't adjudicate any ruling so long as CB hasn't granted blessing. Too much power for the CB, if you ask me, but it's quite straightforward and it's the law which, at the moment, is to be followed lest we descend into total chaos.



Pherttsylvania	Jul 17 2017, 05:29 PM Post #38
Lazarene Posts: 82 Group: Accused Member #435 Joined: Sep 17, 2016 Alignment Lawful Good Military Stance Neutral Political Views Independent Nation in Lazarus Pherttsylvania	Lamb Jul 17 2017, 04:55 PM Because following the word of the law is dramatic? Perhaps when it's this poorly written. We can't just pretend the holes in our law don't exist, otherwise they'll never be fixed. Again, your angle is what here? How many times do you want me to say it? You are dramatic. I had highlighted the portion of your message I previously quoted with which I took issue. Namely that you seemed to be trivializing the concerns of other community members regarding this issue. You seem confused by that although I said it really blatantly. It isn't like I talk in minutiae or argue semantics like some people. It really boils down to how you present yourself overall- resolute, inflexible, and unnecessarily demeaning. How many times does a new person have to come to Lazarus, express an opinion that you disagree with and receive some snarky response? "That's just how he is!" returns the chorus. It makes it seem that you're not really interested in anyone else's opinion about anything, at least not if it differs from your own. It's easy to get your way when you're always the first and loudest voice, and when you're unnecessarily critical of the opinions and concerns of others, you aren't really doing much to promote open discourse about the very things we as a community should be concerned about fixing.



The13th	Jul 17 2017, 07:38 PM Post #39
Guy in the Public Eye Posts: 455 Group: Citizen Member #547 Joined: Mar 3, 2017 Political Views Independent Alignment Neutral Good Military Stance Neutral Nation in Lazarus Daybreak13	Harmoneia Jul 17 2017, 05:14 PM Amerion Jul 17 2017, 02:42 AM Since we are talking about 'points,' I'd like to make my own 'point' The Celestial Being may withhold his/her assent, as per the CMA. Aumelodia utilised his celestial prerogative. A prerogative which is applicable as per Article III ((3) (f); with the C.B. having the mandate to [appoint] Prelates on the advice of the Cosmic Council. While not commenting on the reason behind the matter, I state categorically that it is entirely within the authority of the Celestial Being to do so. The C.M.A is unambiguous in this regard; Article VI (6-7) states the following: [the] Cosmic Council shall, at the Renewal of the Universal Cycle, elect from amongst its membership, Prelate-nominees … [the] Celestial Being shall, at his discretion, grant these nominees through blessing, power to adjudicate with his celestial authority. I note in particular the phrase, at his discretion. The persons so nominated by the Council are precisely that, nominees, who await the assent of the Celestial Being to take their seat on the bench. Why are people ignoring this? This seems to actually settle the case. Quote: at his discretion, grant these nominees through blessing, power to adjudicate Seems pretty clear. So while I think the Mandate is not clear on whether or not he is Prelate (if he is, then he is so only by name and still can't do his duties), it's nevertheless pretty clear, and not just a matter of interpretation, that he can't adjudicate any ruling so long as CB hasn't granted blessing. Too much power for the CB, if you ask me, but it's quite straightforward and it's the law which, at the moment, is to be followed lest we descend into total chaos. First of all- Chill out everyone. Please. Second of all- Stop arguing about who is more dramatic. Both sides have fair points, but in reality I don't think there are sides, we are seemingly about all on the same page. Third- Don't ignore what Harmoneia just posted! I think this will settle this argument for now. Aumelodia has denied assent to Killer Kitty's nomination to Prelate because of the influx of new citizens. These citizens who gained voting rights- and voted- all within the closing hours of the vote, turning the vote around into Killer Kitty's favor! This is an obvious breach in the security and function of our Council, and we are all on the same page on changing things around to fix this issue. What we are arguing about is wether Killer Kitty should be nominated or not, and wether CoS should be nominated (the new citizens turned the vote against him in the final hours). The fact that in the law, in the law of laws mind you, the C.M.A., it states that the CB has the power to grant or deny the nomination of Prelates- at their own discretion. Therefore- and since it is disputed- Killer Kitty should not be allowed to serve on the court case ruling on the matter at the current moment. I don't know if you are following me- I'm waiting for food to come out of the microwave so I typed this up quickly on my phone.



Funkadelia	Jul 17 2017, 07:49 PM Post #40
Posts: 2,155 Group: King of the Undead Member #86 Joined: Apr 22, 2015 Alignment Chaotic Neutral Military Stance Raider Political Views Socialist Nation in Lazarus Funkadelia	Again, the 13th, while I respect your eagerness to have everyone relax and not take things so personally -- a sentiment I share -- I still believe that the major problem here is the stark contradiction in the law because indeed the Mandate does include "at his discretion," but it also uses terminology such that prelates, and similarly all other positions ceremonially appointed by the Celestial Being, must be given assent by the Celestial Being in accordance with the their respective votes or whatever other processes are required for them to be confirmed. According to the letter of the law, these things all happened as required. Right now we're working on a fix to make sure that people cannot vote in the same manner again, which is something that was originally left out of our laws that, funnily enough considering the conspiracy theories floating around, Lamb is spearheading the effort on. We have always taken the Celestial Being to be legally compelled to provide their assent to candidates who have been voted on/confirmed, and we have also always taken the Celestial Being to be not much more than a figurehead roleplay aspect to the region, both of which were explained to me by Amerion in great detail before the passage of this mandate several months ago. I still maintain that the Celestial Being is compelled to provide their assent legally according to the mandate, irrespective of the much weaker "discretion" clause.



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